doctorow — 2014-02-21T12:02:15-05:00 — #1
tre — 2014-02-21T12:28:47-05:00 — #2
You forgot the part where the "uneasy coalition" prominently includes at least one anti-Semite from the same political tradition as actual Nazis.
A lot of the coverage of Ukraine right now is reminding me a bit of the way the American media responded to the Tea Party at first. There was this sort of inherent rooting for the underdog ("yeah dude you don't like the man? I don't like the man! we probably agree!") and claiming all of these things that the "Tea Party movement" stood for as though it was a viable avenue for positive social change in the states. Then the egg met the face, and we all know the rest.
ashen_victor — 2014-02-21T12:57:03-05:00 — #3
The Ukrainian conflict is really complex, there are fascist in both sides, pro-European fascists and pro-Russia fascists, that doesn't help sympathise with either the protesters or the government, but it really doesn't de-authorizes either position IMO.
For me, I'm with the protesters, not because I'm European, but because I hate corruption and authoritarianism. Also, Putin is quite an asshole.
ahmed_sayid — 2014-02-21T13:04:11-05:00 — #4
I think that this kind of uprising along with social media and the internet, could lead to a better type of democracy. One that might not need a central government body to function.
incarnedine_v — 2014-02-21T14:10:40-05:00 — #5
what people forget is that in the US politicians call each other Nazis and Commies, but in Europe both are viable political groups.
prestonsturges — 2014-02-21T16:04:52-05:00 — #6
I think the lovely and imprisoned Yulia Tymoshenko was something of an Obama reformer figure, but the old line government came rolling back like the Cheney neocons would like to do. If I had to compare any group to the Tea Party. it would be whoever is on the side of the pro-Russian Ukranian government (and there's a lot of those people). Notice that many American movement conservatives actually are fans of Putin.
deletism99 — 2014-02-21T16:51:26-05:00 — #7
It's very important to understand that there is big a difference between name calling the police as "fascists" and the actual Fascists who are controlling the opposition barricades, the Maidans and the money and supplies being collected. I'm all for confronting the corruption of Yanukovych and his Government but what the Right Sector is offering is no different.
Two very useful articles about the situation, worth a read to understand exactly how the land lies:
Why the Left in Ukraine do not show their presence on the Maidan
Maidan and its contradictions
iponokaoi — 2014-02-21T20:19:31-05:00 — #8
Wikipedia: Svoboda’s socioeconomic platform has been described as similar to that of the Republican Party for the United States, and its approach to ethnic relations as mirroring policy in the Baltic states.
Anti-communist, nationalistic, racist. Real Nazis.
And so is the Svoboda party too.
Politics Makes Strange Bedfellows.
indubitably — 2014-02-21T20:36:52-05:00 — #9
We are ALL Ukrainians.
ALL of us are under boots.
'Tis time to deboot.
epinardscaramel — 2014-02-22T03:54:06-05:00 — #10
Great video and message, but I find it too well made, in a sense. It doesn't feel like a video about an oppressive regime, it feels like the new product launch from Apple (the iRiot).
Did the speaker had to be an Ukrainian top model ?
jasonlanejson — 2014-02-22T06:23:12-05:00 — #11
Hardly, viable? Americans need to move past the cold war and communism. It just reinforces the notion that you are a nation of paranoids.
jasonlanejson — 2014-02-22T06:33:34-05:00 — #12
I've seen the comments about American interference, 'foreign agents'. Funny how all dictatorships use deflection heavily, Gaddafi, Assad, Saddam they all did it, they all blamed their troubles on someone else.
When you have situations like this, you always see the rise in extreme ideology. Golden Dawn in Greece for example, what happened to them? Very troubling, it's a stretch to call those extreme ideologies 'viable'.
tre — 2014-02-22T12:01:33-05:00 — #13
For me, I'm with the protesters, not because I'm European, but because I hate corruption and authoritarianism.
That's so close to "yeah dude you don't like the man? I don't like the man! we probably agree!" that I can hardly tell if you're playing along or sincere.
Me, I'm treating this whole thing like the US two party system for now: I don't have to take a side, and from what I've seen I don't want to.
space_monkey — 2014-02-22T22:19:35-05:00 — #14
I can at least sympathize with the ethnic Ukrainians' total lack of desire to have anything to do with Russia, since, right at the edge of living memory, the guy who was in charge the last time they were ruled by Russia made a pretty solid attempt at perpetrating genocide on them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
ashen_victor — 2014-02-23T04:39:53-05:00 — #15
I'm being 100% sincere, in my country liberties are dripping down the drain at the same pace money climbs to the pockets of the politicians that took the plug.
I'm not just making a "fuck the police" statement, I really meant it. The old days of the Cold War with communism vs capitalism and democracy vs tyranny are gone. Now most countries have democracies, but democracies that without a clear "enemy" are drifting from the "for the people" to the "for whoever pays me more", and that's no democracy.
Sadly our governments are turning into cleptocratic plutarchyes.
Sadly, the problem with the US is that it's a two party system, and it will be quite complicated to change it, but in Europe most countries have 3, 4 or 5 main parties to choose and to change in case of evident ineptitude.
tre — 2014-02-23T22:41:21-05:00 — #16
I don't disagree that the state of government in Ukraine, the US, and a bunch of other places is deplorable. But I'm also not going to give everyone opposed to them an automatic thumbs-up, because there are a lot of wrong ways to oppose what's going on in government.
State capitalism (what many people refer to as "communism" when talking about a certain set of participants in the Cold War) may indeed no longer be a threat to market capitalism, but fascism is poised to make a strong comeback in the global northwest. The Golden Dawn may frighteningly be just the beginning, and the far right elements and foundations of this movement may become another part of this story.
doctorow — 2014-02-26T12:02:18-05:00 — #17
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