frauenfelder — 2014-02-18T15:01:11-05:00 — #1
acerplatanoides — 2014-02-18T17:03:54-05:00 — #3
I don't mean to be trite; does anyone know what the music scene is like there? Upheaval often leads to creative excellence. Something something, 4 dead in Ohio.
I hope justice and freedom, truth and reconciliation can prevail there.
peacen1k — 2014-02-18T17:12:15-05:00 — #4
President Viktor Yanukovich's dictatorial rule
BS, the dude was democratically elected. Where's the dictatorial part? That he's not giving in to assorted rioters?
glitch — 2014-02-18T17:25:32-05:00 — #5
How about the part where he and his cronies forcibly enacted legislature that gave them absurdly sweeping powers?
Forbidden under the new law on penalty of high fines and imprisonment: driving cars in columns that are more than five vehicles long; setting up an unauthorized sound system; distribution of "extremist opinion"; "mass disruptions" (10-15 years imprisonment!); collecting information on police or judges; and more.
End up in a column "more than five vehicles long" for any reason, including ordinary traffic or a sports event getting out? Jail. Use a loudspeaker or a bullhorn in a way the government doesn't like, or even just play your radio too loudly or tuned to a station they don't like? Jail. Post a negative opinion about the government to your blog? Jail. Take part in a protest? Jail. Try to hold corrupt public figures accountable for their actions? Jail.
Clearly the epitome of democracy, eh comrade?
peacen1k — 2014-02-18T18:24:36-05:00 — #6
Can you quote this law where there's something you don't like? Cause, you know, many countries have laws regulating public demonstrations and such. Including the one I live in.
p.s. We don't call each other "comrade" here, so you're on your own.
irmo — 2014-02-18T19:04:46-05:00 — #7
May I suggest the following?
RTFA. HTH. HAND
glitch — 2014-02-18T19:05:12-05:00 — #8
Yes, many countries have laws regulating public demonstrations, but most don't hand out sentences of 10-15 years in jail for taking part in a demonstration.
acerplatanoides — 2014-02-18T19:17:01-05:00 — #11
I can quote the death toll. That's enough.
peacen1k — 2014-02-18T19:22:58-05:00 — #12
Not sure if serious.
People dieing is bad, sure. However this isn't really an argument in this debate since this can happen anywhere, even in the great new democracy of Mesopotamia.
hardcheese — 2014-02-18T20:02:36-05:00 — #19
bagpipes = the new less-than-lethal tool for suppression of civil disobedience.
irmo — 2014-02-18T20:06:56-05:00 — #20
Yes, reading is hard for some people, apparently. If you can't be bothered to read just why Ukrainians have been motivated to occupy Maidan Square for the last two months and put their lives at risk in so doing, then kindly find somewhere else to parade your unwillingness.
lightningwaltz — 2014-02-18T21:10:28-05:00 — #25
Is your point that "He was elected, hence not a dictator?"
dic·ta·tor [dik-tey-ter, dik-tey-ter] Show IPA
a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
(in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.
a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.: a dictator of fashion.
a person who dictates, as to a secretary.
We can rule out the last 2.
falcor — 2014-02-18T21:25:13-05:00 — #26
Man, am I getting full. Stay on topic, people.
peacen1k — 2014-02-18T21:38:22-05:00 — #28
I'm not seeing the other 2 as applicable either. I see a weak president holding negotiation talks with the opposition, while rioters are causing death and destruction and outside powers plot to move their candidates into positions of power.
There are some in this discussion thread who think there is some law out there that the prez used to give himself "absurdly sweeping powers", however they are at a loss to provide any facts to back this up.
peacen1k — 2014-02-18T22:07:11-05:00 — #29
You've failed to provide any facts to back up this assertion.
If there are new laws to regulate public gatherings, I suspect the 10-15 years is reserved for those who are found guilty of inciting riots that end up causing serious damage and/or death. This would make sense.
However some people prefer to view foreign leaders that they don't like as evil cartoon characters that create stupid evil laws that make it obvious to everyone that they are evil. Experience shows that there's nothing that can be done to convince these people that such a view is less than realistic. So whatever.
acerplatanoides — 2014-02-18T23:38:39-05:00 — #30
now, im no expert on Ukranian affairs. but i see a lot of talk of new laws circa november last year which were part of the escalation of this very unfortunate circumstance.
i am curious why this point of proving there even were restrictive laws is part of the solution*. now that this is settled, perhaps you would answer a question rather than only challenging everything, adding little, and being generally disruptive and dismissive, if you please.
* - to the dying, unless the protesting itself is your issue?
gwailo_joe — 2014-02-19T03:03:01-05:00 — #31
For those that have little idea what's going on (like me)...I found these maps to be very helpful:
However...the explanation does not give me much hope for an easy peaceful outcome.
cowicide — 2014-02-19T05:50:38-05:00 — #32
Nine people died earlier today in mass protests over Ukranian President Viktor Yanukovich's dictatorial rule and his decision to side with Russia instead of the European Union.
It's a bit more complex than that. It's not just Viktor's decision. He represented many in the Ukraine that felt that the EU trade agreement would have been disastrous for the Ukraine.
Stephen Cohen: The Questionable Motives Behind Western Involvement in Ukraine:
cowicide — 2014-02-19T05:59:24-05:00 — #33
There's a healthy, heated debate on the Ukraine here:
Debate: Is Ukraine’s Opposition a Democratic Movement or a Force of Right-Wing Extremism?
Video with full transcript.
Just seems like a complicated mess to me. All in all, I get the distinct feeling that we're not getting the entire story from western media here.
othermichael — 2014-02-19T09:19:29-05:00 — #34
$#%&^@()! COWICIDE! This was a nice and simple black-and-white debate, wherein it had been decided (by dint of posting more than the opposition) that FACTS and CITATIONS are tools of the dictatorial class.
Haven't you learned that the only people who ask for verification of strongly-held convictions are astro-turfers? They just want to muddy the clear waters of righteous indignation with the mind-clouding powers of history, context and moral ambiguity.
And here you go, playing into their hands.
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