Heās certainly more of a patriot than Obama.
And, to be fair, almost all of our elected representatives.
He seems to actually understand what America the Idea MEANS, unlike our rigged-elections-supporting, money-saturated excuse for ādemocracyā.
That itās even a question whether or not he is a āpatriotā boggles my mind.
I can see (but not agree with) arguments to the effect that he was a misguided patriot who was either harming unpleasant-but-actually-necessary programs or something of that flavor; but there just isnāt any remotely plausible account of his motives if you exclude āpatriotismā.
Even the conspiracy-theorists and crass op-ed hatchetmen havenāt found any plausible 'spying in the service of $FOREIGN_POWER(a few have mentioned the 'zOMG, what if the Russians used their secret ruskie-fu to decrypt his laptops!!! theory; but that theory implicitly requires that theyād be gaining access over Snowdenās objections).
The āgrandiose, publicity seekingā narrative that theyāve trotted out for Assange(which in his case is probably true, but rarely relevant to the situations that it is trotted out for), is so unconvincing that even the hacks abandoned it almost immediately.
Thereās no ādisgruntled employee trying to stick it to bossā story, both because itās a matter of record that he had some fairly cushy gigs with the feds, and because if he had ever said anything impolitic at the water cooler it probably would have been trotted out by now.
You can argue that heās bad at patrotism(though Iād say quite the opposite); but itās just crickets over in the āother explanations for why somebody would run substantial risks for no apparent rewardā section.
No, I donāt think Mr. Snowden was a patriotā¦ I called for a thorough review of our surveillance operations before Mr. Snowden made these leaks. My preference, and I think the American peopleās preference, would have been for a lawful, orderly examination of these laws. A thoughtful, fact-based debate that would then lead us to a better place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OlqBvi33Z3c&t=132
Obama says even before the leaks, he proposed āa thorough review of our surveillance operations.ā Is he serious? I [Steve Chapmen] asked Laura Murphy, director of the ACLUās Washington legislative office, what he was referring to. āI have no idea,ā she said. āAnd I work on these things.ā
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-09/opinion/chi-obama-misleads-on-snowden-20130809_1_edward-snowden-nsa-leaks-barack-obama
Was Obama referring to his criticism of government surveillance before he came to power? As it is Iām constantly surprised at how comfortable heās getting with towing the official line on this issue. He complains about false and incomplete information coming out from Snowdenās leaks, when this is a flood of unfiltered truth compared to anything thatās coming from the government. In five years of Obamaās government up to Snowdenās revalations the situation has only changed for the worse and become less transparent, yet Obama has the breathtaking gall to question Snowdenās motives and claim that his real desire was always essentially to go further - āput the whole elephant out thereā rather than the piecemeal leaks that weāre currently getting. In that case, I hope the government is prepared to release a lot more damning details of the scope of their powers along with the current excuses and justifications, because they are currently only showing us the ivory in this metaphor.
Exactly. You can argue Snowden was irresponsible, or that he was naive, but how can you possibly argue heās not a patriot? He gave up quite a lot for this, and what does he get in return? Being stranded at an airport without a passport, subject to the whims of Putin.
If he was a spy, heād have done it for another country, and heād have gone there and gotten asylum there. The entire fact that his destination and asylum are such a problem is more than enough evidence that he was only thinking of the US, and not any other country.
The only way heās not a patriot is if you define patriot as someone who loves, obeys and serves the US government. But to someone who sees the US as the American people, rather than the government, Snowden can only be considered a patriot.
Snowden is a defector.
Defector is a person who gives up allegiance to one state in exchange for allegiance to another
Mr Snowden is more of a Benedict Arnold than anything
What he did initially was likely patriotic. How he has conducted himself since thenāavoiding the American judicial system as if it somehow doesnāt apply to him, providing positive PR opportunities to countries with far worse human rights records than the USāis not patriotic.
Yup, agreed. Iām pretty sure this isnāt the vision the Founding Fathers had in mind, and I criticize them often enough for the mistakes that ARE their fault (Women and Men not being equal, slavery being accepted, etc.)
I donāt know his motives as heās been rather contradictory and unclear on them. So Iām not willing to say heās a patriot.
I am willing to say that releasing this has opened up people to the concept of government oversight, and that could be seen as patriotic. But right now heās being used as a tool of Putin to play games with the US on a level that has nothing to actually do with the freedom of US citizens. I know heās playing the cards heās dealt, but Iām more interested in the message than the man who delivered it, because I think the man who delivered it is going to be a tool of Putin soon.
What he was avoiding was the double bind that says ārevealing the crimes perpetrated against the American people is a crime.ā And I think itās more likely that he was afraid of his personal safety rather than mere incarceration. The American judicial system now includes torture and free rides to Gitmo, donātcha know.
If he is a ādefectorā who is he now working for? Czar Putinās intelligence corps? The Terrorists?
Similarly, if he is a āBenedict Arnoldā, whereās the equivalent of West Point, and who is playing the British for him to join up with?
If he were a spy, he probably would have kept the documents to himself. Their intelligence value is sharply reduced if everybody knows about them, the NSA knows everybody knows, and domestic political pressure is likely to cause them to change behavior (how much is a different question) in the near term.
Is this the āprotests are more authentic if the cops beat you upā theory of resistance? While I respect the nerve of people who do risk punishment, I donāt understand why you need to just walk obediently to trial in order to maintain the moral high ground.
He did run with four laptops full of information downloaded from the NSA. Heās not released NEARLY that much. So the comment that he wouldnāt have released info if he were a spy might not be true. He might release stuff that everyone in the intelligence community already suspected and give some more serious stuff to his handlers. (If . I donāt think heās a spy, but I think his laptops end up in the hands of Putinās FSB)
[quote=āgregmaletic, post:8, topic:6931, full:trueā]
What he did initially was likely patriotic. How he has conducted himself since thenāavoiding the American judicial system as if it somehow doesnāt apply to him, providing positive PR opportunities to countries with far worse human rights records than the USāis not patriotic.
[/quote]The American judicial system shouldnāt apply to him or any other whistleblowers, because it has repeatedly demonstrated corrupt and punitive measures against them. Situations like this are why chaotic good is an alignment and the whole reason asylum exists. Snowden has sacrificed and risked a lot to bring these matters to his countryās attention (ālikelyā patriotic), and has obviously only begun trying to save himself second, but any self-preservation is too much for you vultures.
Snowden has not afforded positive PR opportunities for countries with far worse human rights than the US. The opportunities have all come from the American government, which has been displaying itself as a cruel and out-of-control bully, and cracking down on things like journalism - ensuring the list of countries far worse than it is shorter than one would hope.
Damn straight - Snowden was part of the NSA, which has been treating the public as their enemy, and he defected to the publicās side. How come nobody questions the patriotism of the other workers, who have been upholding their contracts at the expense of the constitution, just the one guy who decided to stand up for something?
The American judicial system shouldnāt apply to him or any other whistleblowers, because it has repeatedly demonstrated corrupt and punitive measures against them.
What system do we then use? How do we possibly sort out the whistleblowers from the true traitors? (A group I suspect he does not belong in.)
None that you have now. So you should worry about ending the war on whistleblowers and cruel and unusual punishments applied to them, and accept that some people will prefer exile to your courts until you do. Thatās the cost of having a corrupt justice system, which after all has shown no inclination to separate whistleblowers from traitors anyway.
I sincerely hope youāre trolling.
I say heās a patriot. Given he apparently had more data/information he could have leaked that would have given specifics enough for another nation to build their own prism-like infrastructure and hansāt is as telling as the fact he left a well paying job and home in hawaii along with a fiancee and family.
So much this!
People accusing Snowden of fleeing justice and defection ought to consider that he left a comfortable life in the country where he was a citizen, at the risk of never seeing his loved ones again, all because he couldnāt live with what he perceived as an illegal, gross abuse of power. This is patriotism.
