doctorow — 2014-03-01T11:47:51-05:00 — #1
mike_robinson — 2014-03-01T11:59:51-05:00 — #2
In Crimea, an area where armed gangs loyal to Yanukovuych have taken control
Are you sure this isn't the plot to a cheesy 80's action movie?
rider — 2014-03-01T12:04:29-05:00 — #3
It's only bad if you chemical weapons to kill innocent civilians.
jborgardt — 2014-03-01T12:10:40-05:00 — #4
What do you expect, they have a military bases, oil pipelines, and Russian civilians to protect.
It's kind of akin to Mexico going through a revolution, I'm sure we would be there to try to stabilize it. Agreed methods may be in question, but look at how we handle drones and civilians... Duh...
I'm not saying either is correct in its actions.. Just that the admin at this point should probably redact on its language... Before it gets bigger than it is..
glitch — 2014-03-01T12:12:33-05:00 — #5
Seriously, at this point I have to ask, is the current Russian government actually evil, or just insane?
The terrible thing is, the US, the EU, the UN, and NATO are gonna sit back twiddling their thumbs until this turns into another Kosovo. Mark my words.
The really frightening thought is remembering that Russia still has thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons at their disposal. With Putin and his regime proving themselves to be more unhinged every day, and with the general atmosphere of complacency regarding nuclear weapons ever since the collapse of the USSR, I shudder and pray that this insanity reaches its limits before things are taken over the brink.
marjae — 2014-03-01T12:13:04-05:00 — #6
I don't know exactly what happening - neither do you - but Russian intervention in Crimea [or the Donbas, if it comes to that] is hardly an invasion of Ukraine.
Crimea has its own history. It was part of Russia from until 1954, and was handed over to Ukraine in 1954. Unfortunately, Stalin deported the Crimean Tatars, but of the Crimean Slavic peoples, more identify as Russian than Ukrainian. Of course the people ought to have independence instead of this bull.
angusm — 2014-03-01T12:15:20-05:00 — #7
”Well, that escalated quickly.”
glitch — 2014-03-01T12:15:41-05:00 — #8
How is one nation sending their armed forces to occupy the sovereign territory of another nation NOT an invasion?
Crimea belongs to the Ukraine. End of story. Russia has absolutely no authority over that territory, and their presence there is an act of war.
konrad44 — 2014-03-01T12:18:31-05:00 — #9
Cory - don't use propaganda language pls.
Yanukovych is/was a legally elected president. And this is coup d'etat in motion and let's be clear about it. The fact that I like one side better than the other dosn't change it.
In your text armed "protesters" in Kiev were good guys, Armed protesters in Crimea are "gangs".
It is all about politics and power and both sides use any dirty tricks they can.
doctorow — 2014-03-01T12:20:16-05:00 — #10
Beating up people who disagree with you makes you a gang.
Standing in a square being fired on and beaten by the police makes you a protester.
marjae — 2014-03-01T12:20:18-05:00 — #11
I should think it belongs to their people. End of story. Anything else is authoritarian bull. I should think it was an injustice when rulers drew arbitrary lines and transferred these territories between one and another power without regard to their people. Fuck that shit.
snig — 2014-03-01T12:21:03-05:00 — #12
Cause if there's one thing Putin knows, it's how to relinquish power when it would otherwise be unseemly for him to be in total control. Just look at... Help me out, an example doesn't come to mind.
konrad44 — 2014-03-01T12:23:33-05:00 — #13
In 1994 Ukraine, Russia and others signed a treaty, stating that Ukraine gives to Russia all former CCCP nuclear missles in exchange for borders guarantees. So much for pieces of paper in politics. I guess things would be quite different (not necessarily better in general sense though).if Ukraine had nuclear warheads today.
nemonowan — 2014-03-01T12:29:39-05:00 — #14
What do you mean? Putin is just intervening in help of its ally Ukraine, to restore the legitimate, democratically elected president that was removed by a coup that installed a dictatorial regimen.
This is about defending democracy, guys.
mindysan33 — 2014-03-01T12:36:00-05:00 — #15
That just sums up all history every where... these pieces of paper only carry weight until some decides that politically, they should not.
marjae — 2014-03-01T12:37:58-05:00 — #16
Can anyone recommend a good source on what is going on?
In the meantime, Ukraine and Crimea have a complex history, and Ukrainian nationalism which emphasizes the literary Ukrainian language and the history of western and central Ukraine tends to be unpopular in eastern and southern Ukraine and in Crimea. In part, because the latter territories have their own language [intermediate between Russian and Ukrainian and without the same status] and have had a mix of Russian, Ukrainian, Jewish, German, Greek, Tatar, etc. cultures. In the Civil War, you got nationalism in the west and center, and Makhnovism in the east [though not so much in Crimea], with very different ideas and practices.
vermes82 — 2014-03-01T12:40:45-05:00 — #17
So do you think that NATO or the US is going to retaliate?
mindysan33 — 2014-03-01T12:42:00-05:00 — #18
I honestly have no clue where I stand on this issue, other than to say that there are so many twists and turns, we can't see what's happening. Putin is an authoritarian, we all know that and it's clear that he is only acting in his own interest. But so is the EU/US in this case. As soon as the revolt/coup (depending on who you believe...I say neither, maybe?) was over, the IMF swept in with the usual set of loans, with strong strings attached which opened up the country to restructuring along neo-liberal lines. Yet surely the billions that Putin was trying to pump into Ukraine also had strings attached--at least the IMF strings seem more transparent. the people of Ukraine would know what they are getting, even if they did not have much say in it. Plus, there is evidence to suggest that at least some of the protesters are nationalists with fascist leanings.
I think this might be a case where, much like in Syria, the people of Ukraine are stuck between two devils...
mindysan33 — 2014-03-01T12:44:11-05:00 — #19
I think that's the major problem--there is no good source for this. Maybe the closest good source might be Al-Jazeera English, but I haven't really checked to see what they are saying about it. We need strong scrutiny of all actors involved, and neither most of the Western press nor RT is going to give us anything other than spin. I find it frustrating to say the least.
glitch — 2014-03-01T12:52:34-05:00 — #20
If the people of Crimea want independence, that's their business, and theirs alone.
Meanwhile, Russia is still acting as an aggressor, breaking international law and engaging in an act of war. I find your outrage to be entirely misplaced.
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