maggiekb at September 3rd, 2013 10:56 — #1
derek_prowse at September 3rd, 2013 11:00 — #2
correct link is here.
Also, proud e-cig user for the past three years, have enjoyed watching the devices evolve both physcially, culturally, and policy-y.
maggiekb at September 3rd, 2013 11:25 — #3
Fixed the link. Many thanks!
space_monkey at September 3rd, 2013 12:01 — #4
"and why we'd want to regulate them, to begin with."
Because it's not really about the harm of smoking or second hand smoke, but, rather "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." Or was that a rhetorical question?
maushammer at September 3rd, 2013 12:18 — #5
Or maybe chemically addictive drugs should be regulated. Because someone is making a ton of money creating and then exploiting a physical need.
miasm at September 3rd, 2013 12:50 — #6
I see that you're all over that 'somebody somewhere being happy' situation.
k012957 at September 3rd, 2013 12:51 — #7
Not all e-cigarettes provide nicotine. Most companies can provide 0mg nicotine e-cigarettes (which is what I prefer).
space_monkey at September 3rd, 2013 12:52 — #8
I'm not objecting to regulations like telling the truth about what's in your product, or not selling drugs to kids. A lot of the push to regulate e-cigarettes, though, is about making sure that people can't use them in places where it's illegal to smoke. Since there's no demonstrated harm from second hand vapor, the arguments that were used to ban smoking in bars (regardless of what the proprietor or the customers want) in a whole lot of places really don't apply in this case, so the raw, reeking, puritanism of the people trying to push these regulations is shining through.
rocketpj at September 3rd, 2013 13:06 — #9
If I was still a smoker I'd be all over these things. As it is, I want nothing to do with nicotine.
Seriously though, we need to start focusing our energies on more important stuff, like cars - which kill many people on a daily basis.
Living in a free society means having the freedom to make good choices, but also bad ones. Or it isn't free. Sure, set up some consequences/disincentives for the really bad ones (those that harm others), but an adult somewhere inhaling some semi-addictive and mildly poisonous steam is very low on my list of moral hazards in the world.
prettyboytim at September 3rd, 2013 16:02 — #10
I'm curious - if there's no nicotine, why do you use it? Is it just the action of 'smoking'?
gorgonaut at September 3rd, 2013 16:18 — #11
I use a vaporizer (as well as smoking regular cigs. It's good for cutting down).
have been for half a year, now.
My lungs like me better, it smells nice, costs a lot less, and can (if you want it to) look really futuristic.
As a designer, a new type of tech like this is a dream come true.
Also, there's the whole wonderful mod community.
However, I do believe that an unbiased health effect assessment would be good.
medievalist at September 3rd, 2013 16:28 — #12
It's not really clear. Do you know about Rat Park?
It may be that by both permitting and monitoring consumption of addictive drugs, a society could identify environments that are harmful to humans and our culture more accurately, leading to more possibilities for constructive action. Monitoring and/or remedial intervention implies strong regulation, at least as far as record-keeping goes.
narfig_agar at September 4th, 2013 00:26 — #13
It's a fog machine folks. A personal, food grade, flavoured fog machine. The fluid contains propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, artificial flavour and possibly nicotine. Any suggestion that we don't know what is in them is false, the health effects of vaporized propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin are well studied and widely regarded as harmless. Any nasty incidental chemicals that come from boiling the flavour and the nicotine are found in such small amounts they are considered harmless. Perhaps with some horrible cheap versions, or mis-use nasty chemicals could appear but those are anomalous to the bulk of the data. More data is good, but we do know beyond the shadow of a doubt that inhaling burning tobacco will kill you.
There is no science behind their position. What is happening here is a disruptive technology is posed to save millions and millions of lives and health care dollars, and reduce millions in tax revenue. Juice makers tend to be small and artisanal or huge and chinese. Mainstream tobacco has had little to do with it, but it wants that money and is concerned with how quickly the tides are changing. Many governments depend on that tax revenue. They don't want us to spend $15 a month on it, they want us to spend $15 a day. They're used to milking addicts. I mean, they're addicts after all...
On a personal note, I was a heavy smoker who tried everything possible to quit. I chewed nicotine gum for 2 years in an effort to quit. Patches, drugs, cold turkey, nothing kept me quit. Now...well I prefer vaping to smoking. On the rare occasion I've smoked a cigarette since I started has only reinforced that smoking sucks. I started with strong fluid but reduced it without any problems. I can smell, I can taste, I don't stink or cough. My health has obviously improved.
So sure, regulate labeling and over 18 for nicotine juice just as most vendors are self regulating now. Kids aren't dumb, and any teenager who is going to get an e-smoke to "look cool" is just as likely to use a real smoke to do so. I'm not sure the "milkshake" flavour is really a draw for them. Looking cool and doing something counterculture...well, that's hot. They know (just like we do) that nicotine is addictive so if we offer them juice without nicotine, they won't care. They'll lie if they have to, use fancy machinery and eventually tire of the fad, and perhaps we will divert an entire generation...or perhaps we'll find it's an excellent method of all manners of drug delivery, 'cause we're human and all and the kids aren't dumb.
However it turns out, at this point and given what we know, all logic screams we should not be making folks who are addicted to nicotine turn back to a more harmful methods of delivery. The FDA, Health Canada, WHO and the like should continue to research and see what happens but should butt out of any restrictions.
william_holz at September 4th, 2013 03:47 — #14
Angles well covered, folks, and my day has been made.
lishevita at September 4th, 2013 04:13 — #15
You can also buy the ingredients for the fluid and make your own with the nicotine level you want. Doing it that way is MUCH cheaper and gives you the kind of control that a hacker/maker expects. My boyfriend did this to step down from cigarettes slowly. He started at 24mg and stepped down to about 5mg. Now he has some with 8mg, some with 5mg and some with no nicotine at all. Since he makes it up himself he has experimented with different flavors, using food flavorings from the grocery store (vanilla extract, mint extract, etc).
The one weird thing about this set up is that he figured out early on that the best way to store the prepared fluid and put it into the cartomizers without making a mess is to use inkjet ink replacement syringes. This means we have a little basket on a shelf full of somewhat nefarious looking syringes filled with yellow, cream colored or caramel colored liquid.
lishevita at September 4th, 2013 04:22 — #16
Flavor and, yeah, the feel of the thing. I was never a regular smoker, but I do like a hooka with friends, and the large eGo models feel like holding the mouthpiece of a hooka. It's kinda nice.
For people who are really addicted to cigarettes in the first place, there are many levels to the addiction, and just having something to do with your hands, or a thing you stick in your mouth is certainly a piece of it. That's why one of the recommended "get off cigarettes" tricks has been lollipops.
space_monkey at September 4th, 2013 04:41 — #17
Can you buy pure nicotine? He should be careful with that stuff. It can kill you just by getting on your skin.
chipandre at September 4th, 2013 06:34 — #18
Yes you can, and yes it can. Although PURE (100%) nicotine is very difficult to come by and far too dangerous to work with outside of a proper lab. Nicotine for DIY ecig purposes is usually sold at much lower concentrations - generally 5-10%. It's still hazardous, but it's not going to be insta-death if you spill a drop on your skin or inhale too deeply in the general vicinity without proper ventilation.
gulliverfoyle at September 4th, 2013 14:20 — #19
Dude, you can ingest rat poison for all I care. But the second I have to ingest any whiff of it too, we have a problem. Don't tell me what I should be willing to breath in from your pie-hole's exhalations and I won't tell you what you should or shouldn't suck out of a stick. I have zero problem with smokers so long as they don't pollute the air in public places we share.
k012957 at September 4th, 2013 14:48 — #20
I smoked for twenty years or so. I stopped. After about seven years of not smoking, I really missed it. I spend three to four hours in my car, and would occasionally eat while driving. It prevents me from eating, and is generally soothing... Probably something of an oral fixation. YMMV.
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