It is the redlight cameras that have been shown to be total scams - install camera, lessen the yellow light time, PROFIT. They do increase crashes, though the studies and articles I read say they lessen the speeds of the crashes and so decrease deaths (of drivers, never of pedestrians).
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What worries me most is that if the cameras are operated by a vendor that gets paid from a portion of the fines collected, then it automatically creates a perverse incentive to catch people speeding rather than prevent people from speeding. This can (and has) happen even without private companies involved (such as towns where the police derive a lot of municipal revenue by ticketing out-of-town drivers in speed traps) but without a vendor involved at least there’s a possibility that traffic engineers will make their decisions based on safety rather than revenue.
Theoretically it should be possible to set these up in corridors with high accident rates, make them visible and obvious, along with digital speed displays warning drivers of their speed, and thereby effectively change driver behavior in those areas. But that won’t bring in a bunch of revenue from fines.
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I think there’s some cognitive dissonance here (in my own head!). Let’s say you wanted to reduce the footprint of the LAPD (for example), and wanted to eliminate racial profiling in traffic stops, and still wanted a mechanism for disincentivizing idiots from tooling down residential streets at 90mph. This seems like a pretty good way to move in that direction.
I’ve had no experience with speed cameras, and I would expect them to be less dangerous than Red-Light cameras. I hate Red-Light Cameras passionately for many of the reason’s listed above, they incentivize reckless behavior, and (in my personal experience) can result in tickets that while technically accurate, make a mockery of the intended goal. I have been robo-ticketed turning left at an intersection when the car in front of me inexplicably stopped in the intersection. T-r-o-l-l-i-n-g seems inevitable.
In conclusion: Traffic Cameras are a land of contrasts
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I live within a small triangle-shaped, post-WWII housing tract that is surrounded by three busy streets. All streets have two lanes going in both directions.
- Two of the streets are wide and the speed limit is 40 mph, although there is a middle school on one of them. One street has frontage roads, the second street has a frontage road and a flood channel on one side and a mix of businesses and homes on the other side. People easily drive 10-20 mph over the limit.
- The third street has homes on both sides of the street and a wide median with trees down the middle. It also has a mind-your-speed sign. The speed limit is 35 mph and cars/motorcycles just fly past me, going perhaps 5-15 mph over.
The biggest safety issue is the abundance of large trucks and muscle cars that fly down the road, burning rubber when the light turns green. (Ha! One just occurred as I’m typing this and I can still smell the rubber.) According to the article, my city will be one of the cities piloting this. Since police refuse to enforce traffic citations, I guess I’m okay with the pilot program. I mean, we’ve had two middle school kids killed by cars since 2020, so something needs to be done.
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@beschizza is just trying to make G.N. look cool
#DarkGavin
Sadly, roads require ongoing maintenance and gas taxes aren’t cutting it with the rise of electric and hybrid vehicles. Something will need to happen, though private companies shouldn’t take a cut.
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I’m experiencing a version of that right now. California’s Toll Roads ™, a textbook example of a predatory “public-private partnership,” is trying to bill us for a violation far away, by a new Tesla (our car is a used Honda) that their system says belongs to us. Apparently the Tesla bore a paper temporary dealer’s plate that connected the car to us. My theory is that the paper plate was the one from our car when we bought it a couple of years back. Heaven knows how they got hold of it. Unfortunately the DMV says they don’t have back records of paper dealer plates(!) and can’t verify that we do or do not own a new Tesla (though they helpfully pointed out that if I gave them the Tesla’s VIN number they might be able to figure it out). The Toll Road people are no help–guilty until proven innocent–so while the penalties pile up I’m in a paper chase trying to disprove ownership of a car I never owned. A Tesla, for God’s sake! As if I’d ever buy a Muskmobile. @@#$%**!!!
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If he’s on a ballot facing off against an actual Republican he’s probably still going to be orders of magnitude better on issues relating to things like climate change, LGBTQ rights, racial discrimination, bodily autonomy, election legitimacy, etc.
If he’s on a ballot facing off against another Democrat then feel free to ditch the creep.
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Good. It’s about time someone did something about the anarchy on the roads in LA. The cops apparently can’t be bothered to do anything about the entitled jerks who almost run me over/off the road on a daily basis. Speed cameras? Ok. Don’t like tickets? Don’t break the law (endangering other people, in the process).
The LA Times has an article about this that people should read. It dispels a lot of concerns people are voicing, such as:
“The law allows cities to fine drivers $50 for speeding 11 to 15 mph over the limit. The charges get progressively steeper after that, rising to $500 for going more than 100 mph.
Under the law, cities and transit agencies would run the program, not police. It would require fines be cut by 80% for those with incomes under the poverty line, and by 50% for those earning as much as 250% above the poverty level. It would also allow people to do community service in lieu of making a payment.”
“Revenue generated from the tickets must be spent on the program and additional traffic-calming measures — and nothing else.”
“A 2016 study of speed cameras in Montgomery County, Md., by the nonprofit research group found the devices reduced the likelihood of a crash that resulted in a fatality or serious injury by 19% and cut speeding of 10 mph or more by 62%.”
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there are other ways of dealing with traffic behavior:
for instance: narrow the roads, add speed bumps, pay for crossing guards, improve public transportation and bicycling options, time the street lights to encourage smooth slow flow, and of course the state could pass laws letting some organization other than armed cops hand out in-person tickets.*
but i think ticketing tends to be the easier sell than raising taxes, even if they all ultimately cost taxpayer money.
( *we could also phase out suvs and large-sized non-commercial trucks, which tend to kill and injure pedestrians more than car shaped vehicles. and heck – if we were really serious about traffic deaths – we could add governors to cars again. now that would cause some riots in the street! )
eta: @n8_zilla –
all that context you added is great info, and actually makes me feel better about the law.
on this part:
this seems… so ridiculous. if traffic calming measures are needed pay for them! why wait to build revenue, continuing in the meantime to generate collisions and deaths?
deal with the problem by paying directly for the traffic calming, and save everyone the long term costs ( and heartache ) right now
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Honestly, our ability to levy taxes in this state is so screwed up that this might be the easier-to-implement funding option. Personally, I’d prefer a system that bases the fine on income, so all the assholes in their ridiculous Lamborghini SUVs doubling the speed limit would feel some real pain, rather than handing over what amounts to pocket change, for them.
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Gas taxes haven’t cut it for decades, regardless of electric status. The federal gas tax isn’t indexed to inflation. Gasoline use per capita is down a but from 2000, but only by about 40 gallons a year since the 80s. Over that time average vehicle weight has gone up by about 1000 pounds. Road damage scales by the fourth power of the weight per axle.
Residential segregation. I’ll point you to a study by Dr. Dunn at Cleveland state looking at racial disparities in traffic tickets. He found that black drivers didn’t speed more, the cops didn’t ticket individually at a notably higher rate, but black drivers were massively over ticketed relative to their population. Digging deeper into the data it was clear that more cops were stationed on roads used predominately by black drivers. That has the added twisted side effect of being hugely self justifying. Each additional ticket shows it as an area with a speeding problem showing the need for more cops.
The problem is that it doesn’t do that terribly well. Cameras tend to be concentrated in low income and majority non-white neighborhoods. This increases the burden on those communities and increases the chance of ending up with a suspended license. The funding also tends to go to the cops, though not in this case apparently. If you want to reduce speeds road design is where it is at. Residential streets should have chicanes, road tables, narrower lanes, and other traffic calming measures. People will naturally drive at what the road feels like it supports, with minimal regard for the law.
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While a speed camera may help, or at least collect funds. Road design changes would have a much larger impact.
Start with reducing to one lane each way. Add a turning lane in the middle on the open road and left turn lanes in the space already there in the divided road. Add some traffic calming structures along the side of the road at intervals. Anything from little sidewalk islands to road bumper reflectors to speed lines on the road.
All of those things, even the reduction in lanes, would have very little impact on throughput but a large impact on reducing speed. None of them are even the dreaded speed bump so while they’ll slow most traffic they will not actually prevent a very committed speeder. Add a random mobile speed camera to fine that guy who is left on occasion.
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I agree.
Our sales taxes are one of the highest in the state. It’s regressive for people who make the least amount of money. About 0.5% of our sales tax is earmarked for streets and cops, but you can guess who gets the money. Since Prop 13, raising property taxes are out of the question.
Unfortunately, speed bumps do a number on cars no matter how slow you go. Each road has bike lanes and are popular with the fitness bikers. Also, these streets are major thru ways for city ambulances/EMT, fire trucks, and buses so using speed bumps and narrowing the road isn’t a consideration. The students were also in the crosswalk with a controlled light so their one crossing guard is used for the crosswalk in front of the school that doesn’t have a light.
My specific issue with using cameras to issue speed tickets is that when a cop issues the ticket, it immediately changes the behavior for the rest of the day, maybe even until the points drop off the driver’s record. It’s an instant correction. Even having motorcycle cops parked, but not issuing tickes, will have a demonstrable effect.
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I dunno, as someone who is trapped on a commuting racetrack a couple of times a day, I say put up plenty of warning signs and line the interstates with these things. And then direct the funds collected to building actual intelligent transit rather than the idiocy we now have.
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No, they keep working… Can vouch. You’re welcome, DC.
I believe (in P.G. at least) they changed the law to allow them anywhere (like in DC, where they put 'em along the freeway). Not sure they’ve actually deployed 'em that way, yet. (I’m unaware of decoys, though it seems they do leave the “photo enforced” sign up long after the camera is gone - other places that have long had cameras aren’t signed at all)
That’s true, for like that 100 or 200 feet. Then the Dodge Charger, or import with the fartcan exhaust, guns it on the way out of the speed zone. At 4am.
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Cameras tend to be concentrated in low income and majority non-white neighborhoods. This increases the burden on those communities and increases the chance of ending up with a suspended license. The funding also tends to go to the cops, though not in this case apparently. If you want to reduce speeds road design is where it is at. Residential streets should have chicanes, road tables, narrower lanes, and other traffic calming measures. People will naturally drive at what the road feels like it supports, with minimal regard for the law.
Fair points. I will say that in LA (thus far) I have only seen Red-Light cameras at large intersections (And only enforced in Culver City, other neighborhoods have largely removed them over citizen complaints). Some neighborhoods still have them up, but won’t enforce if you complain, which likely goes to your point about low income and majority non-white neighborhoods being more impacted, being less likely to push back.
I am 100% behind you with a design-first approach to traffic-calming. I would love to see LA re-imagined as a walking city. My street ends with a half-closure that shields it from one of the major arteries, and it makes a huge difference in quality of life, especially in the Era of Maps, which load-balance traffic through residential neighborhoods.
When trying to find the proper term for the traffic calming measure on my street (Half Closure), I stumbled upon a great reference document:
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