Catalonian parliament declares independence from Spain

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Facundo - I have a (slightly) off-topic question: how does Mr. Puigdemont pronounce his name? (Please forgive my attempts at phonetic representation; learning IPA has been one of those things I mean to do One Of These Days for decades now.)

The reason I’m curious is that I’ve always heard the last name Puig translated “Pweeg”, and never really given it much thought. But whenever I hear Mr. Puigdemont’s name on the news, it’s pronounced “Poojdemont”. How do native Catalan speakers pronounce his name, and - now that I think of it - is “Puig” a Catalan name? (And if so, how do you pronounce it?)

Thank you!

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Here you have an example of how to pronounce it in Catalan: https://www.howtopronounce.com/catalan/puigdemont/

“Puig” is a pretty usual catalan surname, it means “hill”. Here goes an example of how to pronounce it (the second play button): https://www.howtopronounce.com/catalan/puig/. In Catalan the letters “ig” form a sound that in English could be similar to words ending in “ch”, like “beach”, “church”. So pronouncing “Puig” for an English speaker would be something like pooch.
Regarding “Puigdemont”, it’s not as usual as “Puig”. “De” means “of” and “mont” means mountain (though the direct translation of “mountain” into Catalan is “muntanya”). So, semantically, in English would be something like “Hillofmountain” ¿? :sweat_smile:

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You’re totally right - ultimately, nationalist secession cannot give anyone freedom. It can give some people a greater sense of agency and identity, but by definition it will involve imposing non-consensual authority over others who don’t agree with or appreciate the new government. This is the nature of all states, though: they use force to rule people who don’t want to be ruled. So while it’s an important complaint, I don’t think it should be taken as an argument for the status quo of a unified Spain.

Instead it’s a reminder that simple secession from an overbearing government is not enough: in the end we have to actually render all governments powerless and irrelevant.

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“5 channels of regional TV stations still broadcast anti-Spain hate on a daily basis”

That’s your opinion. People living in Catalonia can choose which TV channel they want to see. That’s not the case of people living in Spain. Your explanation of why there’s independentists is “they’ve been manipulated by catalan TV”. If catalan TV is the one with a highest share maybe it’s because people feel is the most reliable. Can we say the same regarding spanish public tv? Here a list of examples of manipulation from journalists on public spanish TV, TVE (in Spanish): 23 ejemplos de manipulación en TVE con la información sobre Catalunya

You still cannot school you child in Spanish in Catalonia

Catalan schools use catalan as vehicular language. Of course, Spanish language is one of the courses kids have along their time in schools and, when they reach the final exam before college (Selectividad), the level of Spanish language of catalan boys and girls is higher than the average of Spain (much better than Madrid, for example):

There are people like you that keeps trying to make a hate issue from languages. Catalan and Spanish live together and happy in Catalonia. Any tourist who has visited Barcelona knows that. Certain people from Spain visiting Catalonia feels insulted when they hear Catalan in the street. That’s their problem.

In fact, the trimming by the Constitutional Court of the Catalan Statute of autonomy did not create significant changes in opinion polls or autonomic election results

Here a part of Wikipedia article about the Statute: “Four years later, on June 28 of 2010, the Constitutional Court of Spain assessed the constitutionality of several articles of the Law,[2] rewriting 14 of them and dictating the interpretation for 27 more. That led to a massive demonstration in Barcelona of more than a million people[3][4] under the slogan in Catalan Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim (in English, “We are a nation. We decide”).”
And here a graphic of the evolution of pro-independence feeling: Así han influido los hitos políticos en el sentimiento independentista It shows, basically, that the arrogance of PP and Rajoy has been the best food to create catalan independentists.

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People in the rest of Spain can certainly choose what they see. In a typical debate in Cuatro or La Sexta (national private TV stations) you can often find a similar number of independentists to non-independentists. Exactly why that is not the case in Catalonia public television despite the society being split in half goes to show how non-independentists (representing at least half the population) are corded off to a large degree in public regional media. I linked to a TV3 debate that looks nothing like a debate, and there’s plenty of similar debates available on TV3’s websites (there’s typically only one “espanyolista” sparring. Since you did not comment on the “debate” I linked to here’s another one: Tarda oberta - Tarda oberta - 3Cat , from min 48 there is 1 “espanyolista” sparring against 4 independentists. The comparison with a debate in La Sexta on balance on the same issue is out there, specially considering La Sexta is a national TV channel). The balance between the two sides of Catalonian population on TV3 is just not there. National public TV, TVE, I can agree that it might not be the most independent TV (and I agree that 1-O coverage should have been more balanced on TVE, though continuous coverage on 24h channel had only two commentators that were relatively even), but at least reflects the majority of the population it is supposed to represent (it is probably unreasonable to find much sympathy for breaking a country apart on a public national TV).

Here’s an interesting title on a Wall Street Journal article '“If you are a thug, a prostitute or a lowlife in a show aired on the Catalan-language TV3 network, chances are you speak Spanish”

On the subject on anti-Spain hate, here’s a interview of a Catalan that has decided to stop attending “Circus of hate” TV3 “debates” anymore, speaking clearly on the issue

I did not say otherwise. It is true until you dare ask for even a 25% of Spanish-language schooling. Or if you try to have a street sign on a retail store that does not include Catalan you can be fined up to 10.000€. There are more Spanish language speakers than Catalan language speakers in Catalonia (50.7% being the common use language for Catalans as per the local government reports, as opposed to 36.3% for Catalan language), yet there are basically only public TV channels and radios in Catalan language.

It is simply unthinkable that a kid with Catalan language immersion at school can have a higher level of Spanish than a kid in a Spanish-only region schooled in Spanish. One just cannot have everything. To pretend otherwise, Catalan government lowers the levels of the Spanish language test in the PAU (University Access Tests), hence the misleading impossible result. In 2012, a 250-word excerpt from a children’s book, Manolito Gafotas, was used on these university access tests. I’m not just saying ( La Generalidad rebaja el nivel de las pruebas de español para argumentar que la inmersión no es perjudicial « La Voz de Barcelona ). Yes, a children’s book for university access.

True, but opinion polls and regional election results did not change. How is this possible if people were supposedly so angry on the issue? And if it was such a big deal, why the low attendance to the referendum?

Your “La Vanguardia” graphic actually proves my point. The huge jump in 2012-2013 is unrelated to any event specifically related to Catalonia and happened two years after.

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These guys in the picture are not doing the nazi salute, but the “quatre barres” gesture with their hands, a symbol for catalan indepenentists that comes from the legend of the Four Blood Bars, which “explains” the origin of the catalan flag. Notice the thumb finger closed and the rest of fingers open.
You can compare the difference between the fascist salute looking to these other pictures: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-polls-open-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976791.html

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TV3 issue

Your references are biased (Antena3, La Sexta, VozBcn) or opinion articles (Wall Street Journal). The best way to guarantee pluralism is having different options: catalan public tv, spanish public tv, private tv,…That’s the situation in Catalonia (not in Spain, unfortunately). What you propose (lock down catalan public tv) is called censorhip.

Catalan issue

If there are so many spanish speakers in Catalonia, you should accept that the catalan government tries to promote the one that is in minority, right? Or your goal is to remove it?

Your “La Vanguardia” graphic actually proves my point. The huge jump in 2012-2013 is unrelated to any event specifically related to Catalonia and happened two years after.

No. The huge jump starts after Constitutional Court sentence about Statute (2010) and escalates with the government of absolute majority of Mariano Rajoy (started in late 2011). Anyway, elections is the best way to find out what do the people want. Last October 1 the “Yes” won by huge difference. We’ll see again in December 21st.

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Huh. I didn’t know that “puig” was “hill”; it seemed like a cognate of “peak”, so I was assuming that his name would translate to “mountaintop” or some such. Interesting. One lives and learns (unless one is careful!)

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…aaaaand right there my sympathy, as an independent observer, shifts a little closer to Spain.

Whatever happened in the 16th century, raising your hand in this way in a political context anywhere in Europe is immediately suspect. In the US we are currently plagued by people in the South claiming that the confederate flag and statues of confederate war heroes are just a celebration of heritage, not a glorification of racism, slavery, or treason. It is, I’m sorry, complete bullshit.

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According to the CNT anarchists in the podcast I posted in an earlier thread [1], it’s more that the separatists come from across the spectrum, but the Spanish nationalists are almost all on the right.

That’s information from an interested party, though; use your own judgement as to whether it’s reliable.

[1] Begins with twenty minutes of CNT history, gets onto current events after that.

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How many did he sign then? Here’s one of them

companys-sentencia-muerte
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There are more than 400 documented death penalties signed by president Companys, who awarded himself the authority to do such thing. Even those sentenced to death by military courts were given to the crowds for lynching. 46 interrogation and torture locations (“Checas”) have been documented in Barcelona. An ERC checa would burn bodies in the Montcada y Reixac cement factory.

On the concentration camps, the article I linked to is no “blog of radicals” but 16 pages of extensive research and testimonies by Ramón Boleda y Cases.

From the one “blogs of radicals” I linked to, the text is hard official data from the very Generalitat de Catalunya including the list of 8000 people assassinated under his presidency. He was obviously not trying very hard and he passed decrees that would help those assassinations. That we was executed by Franco does not make him less of an assassin. There is a comprehensive list of 1300 “patrollers” with names, job titles and even salaries. Assassinations were not random and uncontrolled, but executed by specific antifascist committees using lists of names. Popular juries were allowed in public locations that would also sentence to death. Prisoners were kept in prison ships in terrible conditions. So pretending the president of the local government had nothing to do with all this, is, as you would word it, “science fiction”.

ERC congressman Pere Màrtir Rossell i Vilar wrote “The Race” (La raça, 1930, https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/llibres/1930/60157/raca_a1930.pdf , quite the read), a racist supremacist book that does not help with making ERCs beginnings look very heroic or noble. Yet, as the leading independentist party of today’s Catalonia, they do not seem to regret where they are coming from. And current ERC leader, Oriol Junqueras, in an 2008 article, drew his own conclusions on Catalonian genetic differences to the rest of Spain from a modern genetics study of the european population, which does not help.

I did not make a connection, just a parallel between scamots (seen in the linked video) and SA as they were both armed paralimitary forces belonging to parties.

From doing some research, though, ERC leader Josep Dencàs (who defined himself as «nacional socialista») was known as “Duce catalán” for his sympathy for italian fascism.
A cartoonist in CNT (anarchist) magazine in 1933 seemed to make a connection to the founder of ERC and nazism; though I will not give much credit to an extremist’s cartoon.macia-esvastica-nazi

I will not defend Franco’s undeniable crimes, but that is a sentence that somebody simply made up. Millions died in the first and second WW and many of those bodies clearly were never recovered.

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@d_r …aaaaand right there my sympathy, as an independent observer, shifts a little closer to Spain.
Whatever happened in the 16th century, raising your hand in this way in a political context anywhere in Europe is immediately suspect.

Of course, you are free to think whatever you want. If you ask me, I agree, they shouldn’t do that because people from abroad like you don’t know the legend and they’ll think it’s the fascist salute. I’ve read several opinions articles from pro-independence people warning about that (In Catalan:. El risc d'ensenyar quatre dits | Articles | El Punt Avui, Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira - Himnes, punys i dits).
I paste a fragment of one of these articles GoogleTranslated:

Depending on the angle of the photo, depending on the tautness of the arm, depending on the opening angle of the fingers and, above all, depending on the degree of ignorance or bad faith of the spectator, it is perfectly possible to think that him who shows to the world the standard of Catalonia is actualling doing one of these salutes which, in many countries in Europe, are prohibited. Therefore, despite understanding the emotional and political energy of this gesture, I find it generates an unnecessary risk. I would even prefer the sweetened American way that can be seen from time to time when The Reapers are sung: four fingers from the right hand to the heart.
Joan Lluís-Lluís, The risk of showing the four fingers (16 Nov 2014) [It’s the paragraph that starts with “Segons l’angle de la foto,…”]

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I’m going to spend ten seconds more of my time to suggest honest people interested in knowing the facts to do what anybody should do in these cases: read the work of scholars and historians. Here’s one suggestion: The Spanish Holocaust by Paul Preston.

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Your legend from half a millenium ago is completely irrelevant. The salute’s iconography has changed since then, and no amount of “that’s not what we meant” makes it any better.

Oh stop. Just stop.

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Well; I won’t discuss the Catalonian legends, but opening your fingers while making that gesture during a political rally would be a sure way to get prosecuted in Germany, we we also have some experience with nationalism and the Roman salute.

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That’s what the author of the article was saying. Don’t do that because it seems you’re doing the Roman salute. I believe it’s quite obvious which side is doing the Roman salute on purpose and which is not: https://www.google.se/search?q=spain+fascist+salute&client=firefox-b-ab&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-iZqFvpXXAhULJJoKHew4BegQsAQIQw&biw=1292&bih=949

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I have linked to actual current full TV3 (Catalan public TV) programmes, but that is not good enough for you. To full La Sexta programmes so that anybody can make their own opinion.

Please ignore opinions in the articles if you want and leave only proven facts: the undeniable truth is that a childrens’ book was used to evaluate the Spanish language abilities on university access tests. ¿Are you denying that?

The undeniable truth is that Catalan public TVs debates largely ignore half the Catalan population, as anyone can see on the full official debates available on their web site for anybody to see.

Are you denying there is a regional law that defines fines for Spanish only signs? (you can find it at http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/ca-l22-2010.html)

Are you denying families had to resort to the Tribunal Superior de Justicia de Cataluña to get 25% of Spanish language schooling in 2015 in Balaguer? And that Roser Jurado, local ERC candidate, wrote in Facebook that “This will not stay that way! We’ll see how the family gets received [when the course starts]” (needless to say, the parents ended up changing the child to another school to avoid exposure of the infant to such hatred).

Here’s a good one on TV3. In this radio recording, ex-TV3 director states that “Spaniards are Spaniards, and are thieves for the fact of being Spanish”. How could this man full of hate be the director of a public regional TV? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDp3qsegF0&t=41s Specifically, he used the word “chorizos”.

Can you quote where I proposed or even mentioned such thing? Because I did not. This is typical of Catalan independentism; I do not agree with you, hence I am authoritarian (I’lucky not to get called a ‘fascist’) and you choose to ignore proven facts. Hopefully one day Catalan public and subsidized media will mature to self-regulate and be faithful to the full spectrum of Catalans’ sensitivities.

[quote=“Facundo, post:149, topic:109996”]No. The huge jump starts after Constitutional Court sentence about Statute (2010)
[/quote]
My opinion is that your sectarianism does not let you recognize even a clear feature in the very graph you provide, so I have taken the liberty of drawing it out for you.18months

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I’m sorry, Facundo. The death sentences speak for themselves. It’s good to have martyrs to a cause, but Companys should certainly not be one of them, even if that makes some independentists unhappy (linked video is pretty out there, “Shut up!”).

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Do you ever give up? :wink: No offense, but this has become a banal and vulgar thread, with this videos you post off freaks on TV. I’m going to play too: http://www.elnacional.cat/enblau/es/television/intereconomia-sketch-homofobo-fascista_191586_102.html
For those who don’t understand Spanish, a brief introduction: Intereconomía is a spanish ultranationalist TV channel. Here they play a sketch based on the idea of an smartphone app that can tell whether the person recorded via the phone’s camera is homosexual (for them being homosexual is an insult). When they reach the last guy (a famous talk-show guest), the voice on the phone app says “Eduardo Serrano [his name] is… falangista!” He answers “well played, phone, well played!”, then he does the fascist salute and you can see the rest.
By the way, today there has been a pro-union demonstration in Barcelona. Here you have images and videos of the demonstrators: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/ultraderechistas-personas-enfrentan-Mossos-Generalitat_0_702380100.html
And another video from a demonstration today in Madrid: https://twitter.com/NachoAmela/status/924608371340267521 Note: the red/black flag is the falangist flag.

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I’m sorry too. This is what happens when fascists win a war. You end up 50 years later having to defend those who were executed by the fascists from the accusation of being… fascists. A tragedy.