Cultural (mis)appropriation

“cultural appropriation”

I saw a comment the other day about “white people stealing black culture” in reference to music.

And my two thoughts were:

  1. Imagine a history of the 20th century where whites completely ignored black music. Not only would black musicians have made less money, whites would be accused of racism for ignoring this great music.

  2. The heart wants what the heart wants. You can’t ask white people to appreciate black music, but then bar them from playing it. It was unfair that Paul Whiteman was called “The King Of Jazz”, that’s obvious cultural appropriation, but I can’t see how he damaged black culture with his music. In culture and the arts there is room for everybody.

Whatever happened to the “melting pot of America” I was taught about? We either have to accept some stuff that might be called “cultural appropriation” or we start enforcing “cultural segregation.”

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No, you are taking him to task for failing to mention a completly different thing that literally has NO bearing at all to the question “Is cultural appropiation to cook dishes from some other culture” that he is answering. You may very well be not happy with him using SJW pejoratively, but thats not what you are making, you are complaining he doesnt meet your requirement to be convinced because he doesnt go in the tangent you invented on the spot to criticize him.

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Fair point on pointing out his language. I agree it is unwarranted, though I guess it is hard to put into words those who have the opposite point of view as a group. I don’t think there is a static definition for what a SJW is. There is sort of a stereotype in ones head.

At the same time, my point still stands that while he may not agree with who he calls the “SJWs”, or whomever agrees with the counter to his argument, I don’t know why one would assume he would have strange views on black face etc. That sounds rather hyperbolic to me to assume such things. Often times one may not agree with another group on some issues, but agree with them on others.

I think that was a ruse of Euro-colonial culture supposing it was robust enough to assimilate all comers, so “melting” was just assimilation while celebrating a few superficial differences. India IMO is a better model of cultural coexistence.

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Again, I’m critiquing his argument, not him. And I’m doing so because in my experience, complaints about “SJWs” have always come from aggressive rightwingers, who use examples like complaints about white people running breakfast burrito pop-ups or white people listening to hip hop (and so on) to diss"the Left" (to use another term he derisively uses) in general. It seems to me that “SJW” is a largely rightwing trope, and to use it is to bring on its attendant associations and baggage.

And so, what I’ve been trying to say is that since he used “SJWs” as a pejorative label for those complaining about the breakfast burrito pop-up, if he had mentioned forms of cultural appropriation that ARE objectionable (like brown- and blackface), I would have found his derision for this “SJW” action against a breakfast burrito pop-up more convincing.

I think that depends on whose head you’re talking about.[quote=“Mister44, post:18, topic:101818”]
I don’t know why one would assume he would have strange views on black face etc. That sounds rather hyperbolic to me to assume such things.
[/quote]

I’m not assuming that. Did you notice my use of the word “wonder”?

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Not trying to carry someone else’s water, but I call bs. SJW is a loaded term with all that stuff you claim as tangential prefigured, whether the author intended so doesn’t matter. As @milliefink pointed out, the author should’ve addressed that if he only meant SJW on narrowly defined grounds.

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As usual, @anon50609448 says some things better than I could:

¡Ask a Mexican! tackles BurritoGate

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I’m trying not to be flip here, but that’s a dangerously naive conception of the history of white appropriation of black music. Made more money? Like, for real? So they got two pennies instead of one, Elvis is the king of rock n roll, not Chuck Berry.

Whites made an overwhelming share of the wealth generated by black musicians and black music.

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I’ve heard a lot of stories about cultural appropriation recently and they generally seem to paint it as a very frivolous issue. But cultural appropriation is a real problem that we should really be concerned about, even if this isn’t an example of it.

I was watching a kids show on Netflix with my daughter called Tinga Tinga Tales that related traditional stories about things like why the elephant has a long nose or why a porcupine has quills. It’s named Tinga Tinga tales because its art style is based on tingatinga art from Tanzania. The show is produced in Kenya in cooperation with the BBC and works with tingatinga artists.

So it’s a TV show about African folk tales made for a British audience, but it’s made by people who grew up with those folk tales and using art of artists who are also from the same region.

When I was a kid, if you watched a TV show about indigenous folklore in Canada, you could place a pretty hefty bet that it was made by a bunch of white dudes who heard the story once and thought it was cool but were presenting it without consulting (let alone hiring) people from the culture that produced the story.

Folklore and traditional music often have context that goes beyond what a visitor will hear on their first listen. By presenting them without looping back to the people who know them, you may be effectively defacing them. Also, doing so for profit without sharing that profit with the people you owe your knowledge to is sleazy colonial bullshit.

So I’m not worried about Starbucks serving matcha lattes, but I’d be pretty concerned if they started advertising traditional Japanese tea ceremonies. (Are they working with people who can teach the significance of the ceremony and it’s parts? Are employees really going to be trained to do it right in a way that respects the culture? Even if they are, isn’t the net result just a bunch of people gawking at an objectification of Japanese culture rather than appreciating it?) So it can happen with food too, it’s just that the food has to have a cultural significance, rather than just being what people put in their mouths to stay alive in a region (no one worries about culturally appropriating rice or wheat).

I care about cultural appropriation, and I hope that we can recognize that it’s a bad thing even while we agree that selling Burritos in Portland isn’t a problem.

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The tea ceremony was originally developed as zen tool for truly appreciating the wondrous nature of mundane actions like boiling water and seeping tea leaves. It’s transformation into a highly ritualized performance is arguably an error and deviation in itself. So why is it necessary to involve someone explaining the cultural significance and context of the bastardized version?

And thus we come back to the question of: “what authenticity?”

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I sometimes think that Cultural Appropriation was something created by either people looking to make the left look bad or people who just wanted something to gripe about.

It is where cultures clash and are remixed where interesting things happen, both in food and in music. That is not a bad thing. There are people who get off on complaining about some Moral Outrage (or Poutrage), yet still eat in Chinese restaurants staffed by Mexicans in the kitchen.

Now I will go back to listening to Japanese Klesmer music.

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So, the two choices are completely ignore black music, or appropriate it?

There were many white musicians who did neither.

Ahaha less money than what? They were treated like shit.

No they wouldn’t. Are white people accused of racism for ignoring the various rich traditions in Asian music?

Paul Whiteman’s music wasn’t really jazz, but orchestral jazz,* sanitized for white people’s consumption. It didn’t damage black culture, per se, but created a watered down substitute that was used in its stead. Black culture continued regardless, but not like its watered down substitute.

*no disrespect intended toward Third Stream

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Almost any argument for the existence of appropriation is based on incomplete knowledge of the history of the subject. There is just too much cultural exchange over too long a period to simplify things this way.

Chuck Berry was a very talented musician. But his big break was his recording of “Maybelline”, which was a version of “Ida Red” popularized in 1938 by Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, but first recorded in 1924 by Cowan Powers, pictured below:

The Bob Wills version used lyrics from “Sunday Night” by Frederick Root (1878)
An Appalachian tune with lyrics by a Boston songwriter, Turned into Swing by Bob Wills, and into Rock and Roll by Chuck Berry.

Elvis had a huge 1956 hit in “Hound Dog”. Big Mama Thornton released a fabulous version of the song in 1953. But Elvis recorded the song after seeing a version of it covered by Freddy Bell and the Bellboys. “Hound dog” was written by Lieber and Stoller, a Jewish songwriting duo from L.A.

And the people who wrote those songs were inspired by others, bouncing back between cultures forever. Rock and Roll would never have been invented in Either Europe nor Africa. It was a product of cultural exchange. Like almost everything else.

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Almost?

So you think there is such a thing as cultural appropriation? If so, do you agree that it’s an egregious form of behavior? And can you provide an example?

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When you write “I’d be pretty concerned if [Starbucks] started advertising traditional Japanese tea ceremonies. (Are they working with people who can teach the significance of the ceremony and it’s parts? Are employees really going to be trained to do it right in a way that respects the culture?” I wonder if you have a working definition of (a) who gets to decide who are “people who can teach the significance,” and (b) what “respects the culture” means? For example, in the US, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to parody and satirize—i.e. US culture is, arguably, based partly on a healthy appreciation for disrespect.

What is a respectful way for non-US folks to respect our culture of disrespect?

Who gets to decide that?

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You mean the song he was contractually obligated to play based on the tastes of Leonard Chess?

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This is true.

However, it is also true that these white musicians were some of the most highly visible allies of black people during the 50s and 60s- From Elvis having the clout to demand that his black backing players were treated the same as his white ones, to Buddy Holly introducing white audiences to Bo Diddley and Ray Charles, to the Beatles refusing to play to segregated audiences. Being in a mixed race rock and roll band was probably the first time black people were really able to walk into a white establishment and demand to be treated as equals.

Obviously, it wasn’t all roses, but still- It made white people open doors.

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Meanwhile in Canada…

Its an interesting issue… and one I’m not so keen to dismiss out of hand.

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Do you generally go around blanckely assuming other people don’t know these things?

I’m not a music historian, for sure, but I am a musician who happens to appreciate the history that came before me and specifically I look to understand how the evolution of music allows me to do what I do.

Or do you really just feel that white people need yet another person to defend them? You certainly didn’t address the larger point of my comment, which is that whites exploited black musicians and black music for mostly their own benefit, while excluding them from the wealth generated from it.

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Bingo!

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