Jonathan Haidt's book presents stark data on the negative effects of smartphones on youth

It was surprising to see Boing Boing essentially promoting Haidt’s work. At this point it should be well known that he’s not really a researcher. He’s someone who seems to have theories he wants to prove, then he approaches with a correlation is causation mentality and cherry-picks his data. He doesn’t strike me as a particularly reputable source. There’s a great “If Books Could Kill” podcast episode about The Coddling of the American Mind people should give a listen.

I’m not going to say all of his ideas are wrong, though. We all agree that social media and constantly being on phones is certainly not a good thing. It just seems absurd to attribute it so much weight in regard to the woes of the common age when there are so many other things happening in the culture at large. Blaming a singular thing for large social ill should require much, much more evidence and ruling out of other factors. Otherwise it just stinks of scaremongering.

That’s fascinating, and I look forward to seeing how that plays out. We are after all looking at a generation born after the financial crisis of 2008, where parents who were up-and-comers themselves may be more risk-averse as well. I don’t think we can say anything about them until they’re adults. But maybe being more risk-averse isn’t a bad thing. Maybe not wanting to be a money-grubbing grifter who wants to scam people into the latest crypto scheme isn’t such a bad thing.

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Hm. This guy’s data or opinion or intellectual honesty aside. . .

A friend of mine recently said she was glad we hadn’t grown up with the internet and smartphones. I agreed but then it’s hard for me to know how I would be different if we’d had this stuff back then.

I think with many pieces of technological progress there are benefits and certain hard-to-define losses as well (growing up with TV I still read books but I would have read a lot more if TV didn’t exist, was it better for me to see every episode of “The A-Team” versus reading the complete Shakespeare?)

Once everyone started having cell phones, then smart phones, it was like we were all carrying “beepers”, like being an ER doctor on call 24/7. The convenience of seeing what restaurants near you are open and what their menus are like is offset by having people texting you all the time, or becoming addicted to gossip or arguments on social media.

I do like just turning off my phone and living in the world around me, but sometimes that’s difficult.

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That’s true of him and every other pop psychologist out there. It’s the ideas that have value that are the gateway to the garbage.

Judge them on the amount of wrongness and the impact it has.

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Indeed. That’s the one that I meant when I wrote that…

Definitely worth checking out.

I only know of Haidt from a few articles (including the Atlantic article based on this book) and some interviews. I always thought he came across as well-reasoned and reasonable. But I knew when I saw this post that bb’ers would have critical remarks. And I was not wrong! God bless you bb.

I have some research to do.

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It’s a tough comparison, though. I also grew up with TV. Was kind of raised by it. But we had a tv, in the living room. So there was still a lot of time when the grown-ups had control of what was on, so I retreated elsewhere to read or draw or whatever.
In today’s world of everyone having their own screens, it’s a whole different situation.

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So the tech industry is killing the tech industry? The problem corrects itself!

I realise that US culture lionises innovation and entrepreneurial risk-taking, but the thing about entrepreneurial risk-taking is that most risk-takers lose their gamble. Companies go belly-up. Whenever some boofhead calls for more risk-taking for the good of Capitalism, they’re demanding that individuals sacrifice themselves for the benefit of Greater Society. OK.

Innovative risk-taking is easier in a more collectivist economy where losing the gamble does not spell total catastrophe, where a safety net exists so you survive to try again. Just possibly (hear me out here), young people are becoming more risk-averse because they want to survive. The risk-taking tech-industry leaders are complaining that the tech industry has turned the US into a dystopian hell-world where risk-taking is impossible.

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Geez, those guys are annoying. So many of their witty arguments are dulled by snark and jokey smugness.

But I see it’s a critically acclaimed podcast so my opinion must be in the minority - man, do I feel old.

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Sorry, that’s my own risk-averseness kicking in when I’m not sure of a link :yum:

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wait what

who are we talking about :confused:

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telly 1

telly 2

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Ah, he’s just a haidter.

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Like you, I don’t necessarily want to defend the author, but to me this doesn’t sound like my adolescence in the 90s and early 2000s and certainly not my parents’. We had very little contact with a global culture, a concept which really only began touching those outside the jet set with the first widespread adoption of the world wide web. Most of my socialisation happened on a local and regional level with local and regional values being instilled.

I am not saying this is better (there is certainly a lot of value in finding community online, especially for those that are a minority on their own culture for gender, race or other reasons), but there is no doubt that adolescence is a whole different game now in the age of social media and that this includes different role models and the acquiring of social skills.

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This is one of the things that have been scaring conservatives about social media for quite some time

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I was in the checkout line the other day and I couldn’t help but grimace at a magazine across the belt from me. It featured Hoda on the cover (I know her name and that she’s like on a talk show or something? Not much else) with the caption about learning about the power of accepting your true self. This was surrounded by captions for articles about everything from losing weight, to fighting hair loss, and correcting whatever other deficiencies in your personality or appearance they’ve decided you should worry about.

This has always been the dissonance of our culture, since the advent of advertising.

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I’m surprised by the comparisons to pearl-clutching over comic books and D&D and stuff here in the comment section. Perhaps its my child and education research bubble, but the negative effects of social media, greatly aided by smartphones, seems to be getting really clear, and I thought it was accepted by most.

I don’t care about Haidt, I’m not going to read his book, I’ve only ever heard of him in a negative light on forums like these. But the core thesis that social media and smartphones are causing negative mental health consequences is much bigger than Haidt.

I see two arguments here. One is dismissing the idea that depression has gotten worse, the other is saying that there’s no link to social media.

For the first, the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System is a massive yearly survey done by the CDC. It surveys hundreds of thousands of kids a year.

From 1999 to 2013, the depression data was basically flat, or declining slightly. From 2017 to today it’s risen from 27% to 34%. Suicide consideration or attempts had been falling until 2007, and then it’s been climbing again ever since. (2021 surpassed 2017 as the highest year, contrary to the claim above).

Number of minutes per week spent with friends has also dropped sharply since 2012 (and was doing so before the pandemic) from about 150 minutes pre-2012 to just 70-minutes in 2019 (pre-Covid). That’s less that half the time spent hanging out with friends, and it is not perfectly replaced by IMing with friends, but is for the most part replaced by anonymous social media.

Now the data connecting this directly to smart phones and social media is more circumstancial, and obviously other things can also be causing depression – Trump, climate change, etc etc. But I don’t see how we can be blasé about what’s clearly an addiction by many young people.

My wife is a teacher and recounts these stories, and as an Ed researcher I’ve seen it and notice when it comes up elsewhere, but in a huge number of high school’s it’s become impossible to separate kids from phones. Strong policies to ban cellphones are few and far between, in part because parents demand that their kids have them. Schools have policies about not checking phones in class, but every classroom I visit has kids scrolling Tik Tok or watching YouTube. Teachers have generally decided that it’s not worth their energy stopping class over this, so it becomes a series of gentle reminders. “Please put your phone away.” “Again, please don’t look at your phone while we’re talking.” If kids phones get taken away they tend to turn themselves off completely.

We can blame schools and teachers, but I honestly don’t believe teachers themselves are worse than they used to be, but the problem is just severe. It seems that many of these kids just have a really, really hard time separating from their phones for more than a few minutes, to a degree that we didn’t see with TV, books, comics, D&D, or any other moral hazzard that some try to compare this to.

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This. Modern algorithm-fed social media is addictive, and purposefully so. And smartphones, even without the social media aspect, are extremely distracing. They offer a constant source of music, videos, games, news and trivia at your literal fingertips, anywhere you go, all the time.

I think smartphones & social media genuinely qualitatively different than those “moral hazards”, and the omnipresence is a huge part of that.

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Fair enough :+1: Can’t be too careful on the web.

That’s not what I mean. I don’t mean regional as opposed to global. What I mean is: When you’re a kid, you’re surrounded by kids almost all day every day, and they say and do lots of stupid things, but this kid culture does not totally insulate you from the adults around you who are trying to instill those values. What I mean is: Sure, kids these days are online a lot, but I’m skeptical of Haidt’s claim that this will disconnect them from previous generations’ values any more than my youth or my parents’ youth disconnected us from previous generations’ values.

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i don’t have kids but i can’t even imagine the existential crisis of climate change for them, the experience of covid, and most painful of all: mass shootings*

does depression come from smartphone over use, or is over use a sign of depression?

comparing other countries might tease some of those things out. especially the mass shooting aspect. we’re pretty much the only country running active shooter drills, locking school doors, and sending kids through metal detectors every day

( eta: not too mention book banning and the endless attacks on lgbt+ kids, threats of deporting loved ones, daca staus, etc. )

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Heard this story on NPR on my way into work this morning, and could not figure how this guy was prepared to blame the adolescent MH crisis solely on social media. Don’t get me wrong, it has a role to play, but as has been pointed out, there are a ton of existential crises facing this generation, plus a devastating pandemic, social upheaval and the threat of a fascist takeover. “Go outside and play, have adventures” is such a reductio ad absurdum as to stagger the mind. Having read tis stuff, it makes more sense now.

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