Do you have reason to believe that the people in this video (who may or may not be sick, it’s currently unclear) would be better off being forcibly relocated to a hospital full of sick people instead of self-quarantining at home?
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If the Chinese government’s response was being driven by the advice of actual doctors they would have treated Li Wenliang like a hero instead of a criminal.
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I think the point of the Doctor is that they knows a bunch and general gets things right, but not always, because even being a Time Lord that’s thousands of years old with lots of experience isn’t the same as being omnipotent with all the answers. The Doctor fucks up too, as much as they get things correct. What makes them so great is that they are aware that they aren’t omnipotent and don’t pretend to be.
Also, Doctor Who is great, but is a fictional TV show that will very often simplify the very complex for the sake of good storytelling. We live in reality, not in the Doctor Whoniverse.
[ETA] Plus, in universe, the Doctor has the ability to TIME TRAVEL, giving them better access to understanding outcomes to choices made. We do not have that luxury. The closest we have is history, which can tell us possible future outcomes to choices made based on past outcomes of choices made. It’s still a gamble, though, even with an educated guess.
Either way, appeals to survey level philosophy isn’t particularly helpful in sorting through the very thorny reality facing the Chinese government right now. Because these are choices that are impacting actual people, not imaginary ones.
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“Slip of the tongue! Silly me!” (Adds another name to the list)
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my take was that papasan was making an analogy for the whole approach to handling the outbreak.
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China is also engaging in a soft form of forcible relocation by preventing the sale of cough syrup, etc. to force people to go to hospitals. Self-quarantining at home is going to get very uncomfortable for many.
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We don’t actually have enough information in this case.
We don’t know if the people pictured being dragged off were given a chance to voluntarily enter quarantine and refused, or if people in hazmat suits showed up and physically forced them into the van.
wow this gets my brain thinking what a convenient way this could be to pick up and make disappear, in broad daylight, anyone. … I’ll be right back there’s some kind of health authority knocking on my door.
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Fair. If they are at home, staying at home, and nobody else is coming or going from that home they are quarantined.
If they were known to be infectious would you support forcibly removing them from a street, public park, or mall?
If they were not known to be infectious, but had be exposed to someone who was would you support forcibly removing them from a street, public park, or mall?
Would you support them being removed from their own home if they stayed put, but had contact with others in the home who still went out? Hmmm, maybe not needed if people exposed to them that then went out were quarantined.
Many in the USA may be unaware that local public health officers have, in the time of an official health emergency declaration, absolute authority over any elected officials and can direct local police and even FBI and military to enforce a quarantine, secure a building, seize property, remove a person, separate a family, sedate someone, euthanize pets and livestock, etc etc etc. Surprising, I know. But true.
For example, in California: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCLHO/CDPH%20Document%20Library/HORespInEmergencies1998.pdf
Question 9. What authority is vested in the county or city health officer during a proclaimed emergency?
Answer. County and city health officers may take any preventive measure that may be necessary to protect and preserve the public health from any public health hazard during a “local emergency,” “state of emergency,” or “state of war emergency,” within his or her jurisdiction. “Preventive measure means abatement, correction, removal, or any other protective step that may be taken against any public health hazard that is caused by a disaster and affects the public health.”
I know this is true in most other states. I don’t know the exceptions, but I bet there are some.
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So if you have people who refuse to abide by quarantine regulations, who insist on their “right” to expose other people to a virus which has already killed more than 1,000 people, are you going to just sigh and say tsk-tsk while they spread a disease? Your right to freedom of movement is not absolute. What about the right of other people to not be exposed unwittingly and against their wishes to a potentially deadly disease?
Sure looked to me like those people were dragged out of their own home. What makes you so confident they were refusing to self-quarantine?
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One thing is certain, this epidemic is certain to spawn a zillion movies. Though it’s hard to see how any Coronavirus movie out of China will be gritty enough to be anything but a whitewash of the Party. Hollywood, OTOH, is going to have a field day.
I am reminded of the original “The Painted Veil” (B&W) - which was about a cholera outbreak I think. A remake was filmed in Beijing and I met Edward Norton and Naomi Watts when I had a bit part. Alas, my scene was axed.
And yet when confronted with the option to clarify, they chose to insult.
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Granted, there might be a power hungry asshole that gets off on dragging people out this way, but none of the people doing the actual dragging looked like they were enjoying it or trying to hurt the others.
It is highly unlikely they would go to this level of force (and resistance on the other side) without talking about the option to go peacefully? Why make that shit job even harder?
You are comparing the treatment of people of who are carriers of an actual disease with the metaphorical declaration of a group of people as a “disease”. Not very convincing.
Self-quarantine? With that population density you can’t post an officer to every exit of every home of every self-quarantined family. And if you don’t, again with that population density the virus will spread super fast, if only one child sneaks out to see their lover or go to the movies because they’re bored, etc…
It’s like asking the banks to self-regulate. Oh wait…
Friend, please. Nobody said it wasn’t a big deal. We were discussing the point at which it becomes necessary to force people into quarantine. My argument was, when they pose a significant risk to others.
Your argument seemed to be “never, even if they infect others”.
Yes anti-vaxxers also pose a risk, but not to that degree. Herd immunity is catching some of their bullshit. Only you were talking about treating them the same way.
Yes it can be a slippery slope and difficult to distinguish. We could have talked about that too.
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Wow, you sure did find a creepy-ass way of putting that.
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Children, people under 18, have lovers, have sex. Get over it.
They also have an underdeveloped brain and can’t judge risk and long-term impact properly… which is why I brought up this specific example (where hormones and emotions might cloud the judgement) and why self-quarantine isn’t good enough.
No creepiness intended.
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