The American science-denial playbook

God delusion annoyed me. Too many times I found myself insulted at what that… I can’t help but think of him as an arrogant prick, for apparently fully understanding the full spectrum of the billions of believers ideas and dismissing them by pointing out that… essentially two of every animal animal wouldn’t fit on a boat… No shit? I figured that out when I was ten, where’s my Nobel prize? (This is a gross simplification, yes, but is it not the overall point?)

Bind Watchmaker is brilliant and I loved it, which is part of why I was so disappointing by The God delusion, though i hadn’t high hopes for that one, and surely my being offended often and early tainted my reception of the work as a whole.

The entire idea that theists, Christians at least, shouldn’t or couldn’t believe in evolution, science and the empirical nature of the universe is absurd and an abomination to God (Forgive me?) and man. One of the founding principles of the reformation is that man is saved Solely by faith, through grace and Scripture? (I’ve forgotten the quote and it’s late, but that’s essentially correct.)
So, if I could in ANY way empirically prove the existence of God, would that not remove the very basis of free will? It has always seemed obvious to me that the entire of proving the existence of God itself is blasphemous and a heresy… No this position doesn’t win me many friends, but it seems logical and correct. (Faith, that’s why I believe, if you’re tempted to ask. Yes God loves you and is going to find a way to save you, no matter what. And no I’m not going to bug you about, as statistically speaking you’re likely already a far better person than I am.)

I believe Dawkins has specifically made the point that he actually has time for discussion with religious people who approach the numinous from a sane perspective.

I’ll try and find a video and post back.

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Big pharma? You mean the vaccine people? When there really are problems with vaccines, Big Pharma admits it.

I won’t more than mention that nuclear energy is probably the simplest way to deal with climate change and there is a possibility that some of the anti-nuclear FUD has fossil-fuel money behind it.

I thought the two syllables were “God-deh”. I understand the “preacher’s accent” to be adding “uh” to the end of emphasized words-zuh.

If you think that anti-vaxers are the only people annoyed with big pharma, you haven’t been paying attention.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Big_Pharma

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That one started out as loonie christians, but is now almost completely independent of religious or political affiliation.

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Hey anti-vaxers, got a treat for you, now roll up your sleeve and bend over for…

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He’s from Manchester?

I think part of the American problem is being used to fundamentalist religion, though I have heard climate change evidence attacked more on the basis or at least because of it being a money scam even without fully understanding the debate. People who understand carbon exchange credits have a realistic case to see it as Al Gore wanting his exchange to be something as big as Wall St. Perhaps they don’t like the person and don’t want to see him use his position to cash in on billions maybe trillions.
There is big money to be made in making an industrial and economic tie to global warming science, I think(hope) this is why Americans are afraid of global warming being an official thing. Like anything people are following the money and become suspect when they see a game for only the entrenched players, generational wealthy, and well connected to access(like Gore). Like what happened with universal healthcare in the US a good thing is beset by profiteers who have a rent seeking mentality where all money flow must be taxed by the wealthy. I imagine many Americans feel that if they accept the science then they will have to accept another hand opening their wallet. People are suspicious of the 1%ers, that is good; but because they have no trust left anymore they are sidelined from informed participation in democratic solutions. The wealthy win either way, carbon credits will end up with rentseeking, and stripmining the planet has always been unrestrained feudalism.
I feel like the other side of the Atlantic has a culture which in some ways accepts generational wealth better and people are more accepting of their class status due both to history, acculturation, and typically a wiser bottom end welfare scheme as well as an apparent smaller gap between the audacious top and poorest bottom of the social scale.

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It’s interesting that you should say that, since one of the main sources for the three solae was John Calvin - hardly a champion of free will. Why should an obvious god negate free will anyway though? Surely if everyone knew that a particular god existed, they would be more free to make a decision on whether to accept this god or not?

Even if I don’t want God to save me? Doesn’t sound very free to me (it does sound very Calvinist though).

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I think in the Jewish school of rational deism especially Rambam(Maimonides) it must work that way, though the reward is mostly for moral conduct toward humans.

I think that there are several (sometimes independent, sometimes interlocking) factors at work. You do have the fundamentalists, sometimes making the ‘zOMG, basically everything is in God’s Hands!’ argument, sometimes just…a bit tepid…at questioning their leadership; but that’s not really explanatory: were the leadership different, people who score low on critical thinking and high on obedience to authority could just as easily Accept The One Truth Of Climate Change(which would at least make them right; but for reasons exactly as blinkered as those that currently make them wrong).

You also have specific groups with fairly visible, immediate, self interest. Unlike Finland, which has (in round numbers) zero fossil fuels(a bit of peat, plus lots of trees, the exact ‘carbon neutral’ status of use as biomass is a matter of some debate among biologists), the US has lots of them: 3rd largest oil producer, 2nd largest coal producer, 2nd largest natural gas producer. Sinclair said " “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” We have a lot of salaries that depend on that(and, given that many of our fossile fuel industries are concentrated in certain areas of the country, and we are a Federalist republic, this means that some states are practically company towns, rather than being blended into a homogenous nation at large(though even that homogenous nation at large owes its relatively low electricity prices to coal, primarily).

There’s also the matter of our…enthusiasm… for ‘capitalism’ and ‘free markets’. Even if many of us aren’t sure exactly what those are, or terribly consistent in actually upholding them, the national consensus that ain’t no commie pinko gonna take them away is robust. Unfortunately, ‘climate change’ is the largest market failure in the history of human civilization. True free-market doctrinaires loath, and prefer not to think about, market failures at all; but a market failure this big? Nobody wants to hear about that. There are ‘market-based-solutions’ (carbon pricing, cap-and-trade, variations on that theme) and those are, indeed, what get proposed if you don’t want to be burned at stake; but for anyone with an ideological commitment to the goodness(often in explicitly moral terms, in addition to the claim of impressive efficiency, victory over communism, etc.) of free markets, market failure stings. Market failure on a scale never before seen stings a lot, and implies the necessity of regulation(even if it be market-styled, as with cap and trade). Our mixture of pragmatism and hypocrisy has generally allowed smaller regulatory deviations from pure free-marketeering(just look at the Ag Bill!); but this would be The Biggest, Most Dramatic, recognition of market failure since the concept was articulated. Not a popular concept.

I don’t doubt that tribal, low-information-voters, and similar just-plain-idiots have something to do with it, I’m sure that they do; but the thing about clueless people is that you can generally make up their minds for them, with sufficient resources, so they don’t really explain anything themselves (at best, their proportion in the population explains how much of the population will parrot views carefully constructed by think tanks; but not what those views will be). For that reason, my money is on a combination of the fact that we happen to produce more fossil fuels than essentially any nation not lumped in with the ‘Oh, that country, they make oil, don’t they?’ club; and the fact that enormous-market-failure is not a hypothesis with many friends.

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In any other religion does the deity come up to save you from the sins of others? This is what I see Christianity with original sin requiring.

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This book contains some outright misstatements. For example, Mann never sought or was granted any damages in the law suit between ATI and the University of Virginia. Nor did he mention that the University handed over thousands of his emails.

There isn’t a middle ground. The earth IS NOT 6k years old. Saying it is, or even giving any sort of entertainment to the thought, is bullshit. That’s just allowing yet more science-denial and anti-intellectual thought into a subject which should have none at all of either.

The world is not 6k years old. It never will be only 6k years old. It’s bullshit.

How the hell do you expect people tot ake science seriously if we eterntain ridiculous untruths just to coddle people in denial?!

Denying and ignoring science is not the answer to combating science denialism!. What a backwards, uneducated, anti-intellectual, science-denying bullshit line of thought.

The irony, it burns.

And I don’t care if I’m not being nice enough for you. You come off as if you want to help, but you’re just causing more damage with your bullshit.

Not only is there no “middle ground” there is no real argument in the first place. Various “creation myths” do not appear to ever have been intended as historical facts. They are often absurd enough that I’d imagine people would be aware that stories like the universe being on the back of a giant cosmic turtle are not meant to be taken literally. They don’t deal in the realm of empirical fact in the first place. They deal with the philosophical concept of “creation” as it might exist for an artist, or the beginnings of sentience at infancy.

Many irate people seem to not fathom that complaining about mythology hindering science by virtue of being “impossible” makes exactly as much sense as saying that “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” hinders science. Sure, it would be foolish to take them literally - but they are not meant to be taken literally. And if people are foolish enough to do so, the responsibility is on them, rather than the stories they misinterpret.

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I’m not sure that science denial is the domain of only the fundies. I have Facebook friends in Alabama who clearly follow Fox News as well as many friends I know through yoga who are on the other side of the aisle. One of my yoga teacher friends recently posted that all these things promoting washing your hands are nonsense and washing your hands with soap washes away the “natural oils” that protect against infection. Okey Dokey. I could come up with a million examples of things my yoga friends believe that are at least as ridiculous as the things my Southern Baptist friends believe about science.

I think that there is a distrust of the scientific process, and that if you have been around long enough you have been around long enough to know that nutritionists have reversed themselves on what is scientifically true almost as often as you change socks, that the latest pill du jour will become proven to cause cancer and abandoned en masse, that what was once a planet is now demoted to planetoid.

It gives the sense that science is not very definitive. Easy enough to convince people that global warning is a fad and if we wait a few years it will be discovered that it was a hoax,

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This might be the result of poor education/understanding of how scientific method actually works. Laypeople often think of it in terms of things being “finally proven”, when the reality is a constant appraisal of the best evidence. It’s not supposed to be “definitive” in the sense of arriving at concrete truth. Truth is a philosophical problem. Instead, I see the scientific world view as something more like “the most accurate picture we have to work from right now”. As instruments change, circumstances change, perceptions change - the facts we have to work from appear to change as well. It’s your life’s work, and it is never a finished job.

The lazy (and popular) alternative is deciding that if facts appear to change, that we can afford to remain ignorant of them. Why bother knowing anything about ourselves or the world if its just going to change all of the time?

As the SubGenius’ say, “Bob” is not The Answer - and neither is anything else!

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I agree that it is a result of scientific method and progress, but there are fairly easy arguments to make that science never really seems to provide the definitive truths we associate with science, especially as it affects so many fads and trends in public thought.

Anyway, my main point was that while the climate denial stuff might be the domain of the right, there are just as many people who are left leaning who are denying other science findings, for example, well documented information about vaccines.

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I’ve heard it stretched out to four, e.g. Guh-AWE-udd-uh