Do you have any data on that? Any scientific papers to cite?
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They are currently not that, but that is the system I would like in the short term. In the longer term the number of slots would be expanded to meet the demand from the population.
That’s an interesting quote to use to defend the idea of monetary exchange for education. When Paine wrote that he was talking about engaging in struggle (much as a student does) and proposes paying for that struggle through the seizure of the property of those opposed to the revolution. Payne also felt that a large estate tax should provide a payment to every adult on reaching the age of majority. He might not be the best advocate to trot out in this case.
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Um. I do.
I want smart kids to have zero obstacle to getting more education, and more after that, and more after that. I don’t want them to have to decide to go into business when what they really are passionate about is teaching. A great kindergarten teacher has a much, much greater impact on more people, and on society as a whole, than a CEO. Yet we pay teachers crap and worship CEOs like they are gods.
So, yeah, free is a good price for college. Students who aren’t living at home will still have pretty major expenses, like room and board, and that still gives some important areas to give out scholarships for bright and needy kids. But tuition should be free. We would all be better for it.
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Bullshit. I go out into the woods and cut a piece of wood off a tree. I take hundreds of hours to carve it, shape it, sand it, and stain it into a table that goes into my dining room. It was free. It’s the most valuable thing in my house.
A 4-year college degree is well over a thousand hours of work. Anyone who has studied something they love knows how valuable it is, regardless of what it cost in $$$.
Already exists. In order to register for classes, you have to be in good academic standing, typically at least a C average and/or no failing grades in the previous semester.
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Surely at least a portion of the wage differential between high school and college graduates is based on the scarcity of the latter. Making college free will increase the supply of Bachelors degree holders competing for the same number of jobs putting employers in a position to offer lower wages for same education level as today.
Additionally, lumping everyone into only two categories, college degree holders and not, leaves out important details. It’s better for society if a college degree is not the only avenue to higher wages, skilled trades that require more training and education than what high school provided but not the traditional college experience. Also, there are significant differences in wages for Bachelors degree holders depending on what school they attended and what their degree is in; STEM degrees do much better.
I like that the post does not look at college only in economic terms but if it has an “integral civic and social role,” shouldn’t it be something everyone does? Why isn’t high school sufficient to educating citizens in these respects? Maybe younger students should spend more time in compulsory school but I’d look more to extending lengths of school days and/or lengths of school years to achieve that before adding a 13th or 14th grade.
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Please speak only for yourself.
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Trying to conflate an obvious neoliberal with progressives isn’t particularly useful and is not going to work; the differences are quite blatant. Sometimes, they really aren’t a true Scotsman, that simple.
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You’re missing the point; you want fully subsidized college. It’s glaringly obvious such a thing will never be “free,” in that there are inherent, significant costs that SOMEONE will have to pay.
And I agree, such a thing would be great! But it’s not, and never will be “free,” until/unless we stop paying taxes any time soon. Words matter; calling it “free college” merely helps the opposition twist your words. “Subsidized college”, however, or something similar, would be much clearer.
Before you accuse me of picking nits, please reflect on how the words “free college” already are playing out, right now. So far, it’s just been making hay for the Republiturds…
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The correlation between degrees and salaries is broadly accepted, the question is whether that regression line is valid beyond the current state of the world. You cannot expect the dynamics of a society with ~35% and ~50% college grads to be the same. It depends on why college grads are paid more. Here are several models:
- Having a degree causes wealth. Mail everyone degrees and watch the $$ pour in. This is obviously dumb, but people periodically suggest things that seem a bit like it. (Arguments in favor of lowering academic standards, etc.)
- College acts as a filter for dependability, either through admissions or through 4 year endurance. Anyone who survives the culling process is at least capable of showing up to work regularly. There is something too this; I have definitely seen bright but mentally unstable students drop out.
- College acts as a filter for social class. These kids make their $$$ by connections.
- College teaches specific (or general) skills and information which employers value.
“Free” college would have quite different interactions depending on which model predominates reality.
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We’re better off in a society that has plenty of schoolteachers and nurses and therapists. It does not follow that everyone should be a schoolteacher or a nurse or a therapist.
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We could get almost all of the way there with our state and community college systems. Everything has been in place since the land-grant system of the 1860’s; they just need the funds and the mandate to do actually it.
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Huh? I’m certain (at the vast majority of universities) you can fail a class and still return to college the next semester. It may interfere with loans, grants, etc., but failure is definitely an option.
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No it doesn’t. Elites go to elite schools. Show me a rich fucker that sends his kid to community college to sponge off the free tuition. Ridiculous.
Why is there even any speculation about this. The model is in place and has been for a long time. Our elementary and high schools are free. Rich people can and do send their kids to better schools (or schools that won’t kick their kids out because of money). Extending that to college is no different. Any other argument is just rubbish.
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Only if you bug everyone to relabel other taxpayer funded things as “subsidized.”
I’m going to drive to work tomorrow morning (at 7 AM, Subsidized Daylight Savings Time) on the Subsidized Highway, to make some Subsidized Widgets. During my lunch hour, I may go to Subsidized Park and eat a sandwich (with extra Subsidized Food Safety sauce). After work, I need to pick up some Subsidized Pills for my mother to help her Subsidized-diagnosed arthritis. When I get home I will ask my kids how their day at Subsidized School went. At night, I just thank my lucky stars that the Subsidized Military helps maintain our Subsidized Peace.
Or, you know, just recognize that things that benefit society are worthy of being funded by society.
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You realize I agree with you, correct? And I’ll take “taxpayer funded”, if you prefer. My problem is with “free”, which is both incorrect and fuel for your opponents’ fire.
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Really? Things must have changed since my day (Captain Obvious moment, probably); people had to take a semester off and reapply back then.
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I disagree. I don’t accept that they get to set the rules of engagement, especially with respect to wording. Free public education K-12 is already an understood concept; extending it to undergraduate and even graduate education is a straightforward thing for people to understand.
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do not let dr mario screen you for windmill cancer, for several reasons. first off, windmill cancer screenings should not involve removing your pants and underwear… also it turns out dr is just his first name, no period. like dr pepper. very confusing!
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Correlation alone does not imply causation. (it really can’t be repeated enough)
It can suggest causation if the data result from a properly controled experiment (which is never the case for macroeconomics, politics, or anything else about society), and it can imply causation if all other alternative explanations have been successfully ruled out (which is hard and requires a detailed understanding of the system in question). But for human behavior (or any other complex system) the overwhelming majority of correlations have no immediate causal connection in either direction.
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