The WWII soldier who died fighting for the "precious ideals" of liberal arts education

[milliefink]

Not to mention how there’s a basic STEM vs. Humanities divide on many campuses, no matter how much crossover or overlap there may be.

Administrators often think in terms of that divide, with one result being that many on the Humanities side can’t help but look across the divide and see evidence, especially, of a huge funding difference, from widely disparate faculty salaries and scholarship funding to carpeted, state of the art classroms versus wobbly classroom desks purchased in the 1970s, sitting on asbestos laden tiling that’s permanently streaked and stained.

No need to create a dichotomy when it’s already evident who the favored sibling is.

[Mindysan33]

@chenille

The push for universities to be job training is real and hurts them in addition to liberal arts.

All kinds of education are valuable and should be available to everyone… there is certainly no shortages or attacks on various kinds of programs that offer specific job training of various kinds. And we SHOULD have that. But we should have widespread liberal arts education, because it’s just as needed and useful. Not everything is about money making. And I find it sad that some believe that to the case, especially for people without wealth.

Pretty much the only folks who seriously think we can’t have both education in the various specific fields and a liberal arts education are people who believe only some people (rich, white men, primarily) should get a liberal arts education. Anyone who understands education believes that both are valuable and as @milliefink noted, the dichotomy is very much not very real.

@FGD135

Do terms like colonialism and eugenics ring a bell?

But that’s not REALLY western culture! /s

@Scientist

Since when is science not part of a liberal arts education?

@simonize

Both Athens and Sparta are part of the “Western tradition.”

Only because enlightenment era scholars forged that connection. To people in Athens and Rome, people in what we consider to be the core of Europe most certainly were not part of their traditions, just loud, noisy barbarians.

@simonize

So when people are talking about personal freedom as cultural norm, they’re talking about a much more recent trend

Gosh, if only I’d spent over a decade earning some kind of degree to give me a firm grounding on the past… sadly… oh wait, I DID! But thanks for mansplaining history to me, I guess. Much more useful than the hundreds and hundreds of books I’ve read on this very topic!!!

[stellans7]

If I could heart this comment 1000 times, I would.

[simonize]

@chenille

The push for universities to be job training is real and hurts them in addition to liberal arts.

Part of this is that it is difficult to justify the skyrocketing price of higher education except as a means to higher lifetime income. Becoming more well rounded and a better citizen is nice and all, but is it $100,000 nice?

[catsidhe]

It’s a circular argument.

If people who get degrees are more employable, then they are the ones benefiting from the education, and it should not be subsidised. Unless we need more of some type of worker, and then the education of that type of worker should be subsidised a bit. If people are going to get themselves educated anyway, then you don’t need to pay all of it, just subsidise it a bit to nudge more new students that way.

And if the point of the degree is the employability of the product— I mean, the students (wait, no, I did mean “the product”), then anything which isn’t devoted to employability is a waste of time and money. Why would you possibly want to waste time on breadth subjects when tomorrow’s engineers could be studying multivariate calculus?

And if people know that the only way to get that job is to get that degree, then you can easily fool convince them that breadth subjects are a waste of time as well. You’re just racking up their student loans for no reason, getting in between them building the largest debt they will ever have in their lives (what, you think any of them will ever be able to buy a house?) and the ability to lie awake every night until they die stressing about how it doesn’t matter how much they’re earning, the debt doesn’t seem to be going down.

And it seems that people aren’t getting degrees because they want to learn the subject, they’re getting the degree to get the job with the high salary, which means the degree is probably worth more than the university is charging for it, so let’s raise the cost again, and say it’s going into “research” when it’s actually largely going into buying more land and redeveloping the real estate portfoli— campus, and maybe paying for some sports teams.

And the more people are charged for their degree, the more they can’t justify doing it except for the job held out on a stick at the end, and the more they’re thinking about the job, the more it’s about employability, and the more the university will charge for the degree because of the jobs people are getting because of it, and around and around we go.

Why the everloving fuck would we want to waste money on a Classics department? Where are the 6-figure jobs in Juvenal and Aescylus? Who cares about Philosophy? Well, except if we can get the Heritage Foundation and the Economics department to fund a couple of chairs, and we can get Zizek to debate Peterson again… people will pay to watch that.

Performing Arts? pfeh, who’s paying for that? I’m sorry? Yo-yo who? That’s a name? He earns how much? I suppose we can afford a building somewhere with a couple of pianos in it for that.

And so on. And so on.

[gracchus]

@smoofsmith

I don’t think the Nazi lack of care for human life would be considered western at all.

They borrowed a lot of their inhumane policies from the Jim Crow American south, so in addition to being culturally Western they were also geographically western.

As this brave and insightful soldier and many of his comrades understood, the fight against Nazism was a struggle for the soul of Western civilisation. Pretending that fascism is some alien ideology was not helpful then and it isn’t now.

@simonize

Part of this is that it is difficult to justify the skyrocketing price of higher education except as a means to higher lifetime income.

If only there were a means to combat that, like free or heavily subsidized tuition for a post-secondary education of any sort. Nah, that’s like thinking single-payer universal healthcare could exist. It’s like believing America would cover the liberal arts college bills of soldiers after they served.

Higher education, especially a liberal arts one, doesn’t have to be a luxury product. American conservatives have made it that and are fighting tooth and nail to keep it that (see their pushback against Biden’s student loan forgiveness initiatives).

@Mindysan33

But we should have widespread liberal arts education, because it’s just as needed and useful.

And it can lead to a lucrative career as well, if one is lucky enough. Those in the small club of fortune 500 CEOs are just as likely to have an undergrad degree in history or poli sci or psychology as they are to have one in business administration.

This idea that a liberal arts degree is not useful in the real world is and always has been BS.

[Mindysan33]

@simonize

Part of this is that it is difficult to justify the skyrocketing price of higher education except as a means to higher lifetime income

We figured out how to fund public education to the grad school level in the Cold War. There is no reason we can’t do it now. The reason we don’t is because we’ve become a neo-liberal economy obsessed with “value” based on money rather than other criteria. We’ve made a choice NOT the fund higher ed, that’s all. We can make different choices.

@simonize

Becoming more well rounded and a better citizen is nice and all, but is it $100,000 nice?

Having a civil society that is incurious and unengaged and unable/willing to do the hard work of thinking hard about the world as it is and could be has larger consequences. Focusing only on money is part of what got us to where we are today. Maybe YOU don’t care about having a robust democratic society, because no one is spreading lies about YOU and YOUR life, but quite a few of us are already seeing a dminimishment of our basic human rights because people are ignorant about where a money-focused society can lead. If you care about democracy and human rights, then you care about the humanities and robust education that does more than just prepare people to be cogs in the machine.

[Mindysan33]

@gracchus

Higher education, especially a liberal arts one, doesn’t have to be a luxury product.

exactly. We made the choice in the postwar period that it was not in fact a luxury. I don’t think people realize how many boomers ended up getting degrees because of that choice. Far more middle and working class people had access to higher ed than ever before, and it created a lot more diverse set of scholarship that gave voice to far more people than previous generations. I’m thinking of one prof I knew who passed away a few years ago here in ATL who did a lot of excellent oral history work here in the city. We have entire archives in local facilities thanks to Cliff. Or my BFFs dad, who came over from Europe in the postwar period, and he ended up getting a degree in chemistry, despite his family having to struggle to get by in the early days. None of that would have been possible without the societal choice to support liberal arts education for a larger swath fo society.

@gracchus

And it can lead to a lucrative career as well, if one is lucky enough.

Yes, but that’s not the argument for it, and should not be.

@gracchus

Thisidea that a liberal arts degree is not useful in the real world is and always has been BS.

[WTSherman]

For all their morally dubious decisions and history, this gets to something really fundamental about what the Allies* were ultimately fighting for and what was at stake. The kind of sacrifice these societies made for something other than conquest is hard to imagine in today’s world.

It’s a beautiful thought to have in a horrible reality.

*does not apply to certain co-belligerents

[simonize]

I didn’t mean to denigrate the value of a well-rounded education. More to point out that the administrators of colleges and universities emphasize the monetary benefits of technical career emphasis because it allows them to charge more. IMHO the other factor driving the cost explosion in higher education (and real estate) is the fact they they are both paid for with borrowed money. Wall Street currently has more money than it can find profitable use for in industry, so it is lent out at interest. With student loans largely “protected” from being discharged in bankruptcy, those loans are one of the preferred forms of lending.

[Mindysan33]

@simonize

I didn’t mean to denigrate the value of a well-rounded education.

then don’t! Don’t pretend like we “can’t” do this when we very much CAN.

@simonize

More to point out that the administrators of colleges and universities emphasize the monetary benefits of technical career emphasis because it allows them to charge more

I will once again point out how decades of voting for right wingers who say that government “is the problem” has created this problem. There is less money for public higher ed from the federal and state government now and that is a choice made by politicians we’ve elected. It does not have to be that way, and we can do something to change it by how we vote and the policies we demand out of our federal, state, and local government.

@simonize

IMHO the other factor driving the cost explosion in higher education (and real estate) is the fact they they are both paid for with borrowed money.

Lack of public funding.

@simonize

With student loans largely “protected” from being discharged in bankruptcy, those loans are one of the preferred forms of lending.

More public funding.

We are making choices that we don’t have to make. None of this is inevitable. We can make different choices and we should.

[gracchus]

@simonize

More to point out that the administrators of colleges and universities emphasize the monetary benefits of technical career emphasis because it allows them to charge more.

That implies that this is the end goal of the administrators, when it’s really an outcome of the demands of late-stage capitalism.

Notice how the (well-compensated) administrators of public universities don’t have to bend over backwards selling education – including a liberal arts degree — as a purely economic decision.

[A refreshing carbonated beverage to @Mindysan33 ]

[Mindysan33]

@gracchus

That implies that this is the end goal of the administrators, when it’s really an outcome of the demands of late-stage capitalism.

Yeah, true… but to be fair, many administrators are also on board with those demands. The “corporate” university model has started to get lots of sway among administrations of public unis and has spread like wild-fire in recent years. In part because that has a better chance of bringing in corporate dollars to shore up the losses from the public sector.

[Scientist]

@jhbadger

arbitrarily put sciences and liberal arts together

What?
Liberal arts education is one where students are exposed to many different ways of thinking about the world from multiple view points. Every liberal arts degree I’ve seen includes sciences in this and requires some science education. If a student takes nothing but biochemistry, that isn’t a liberal arts education in the same way that is a student takes nothing but English literature that isn’t a liberal arts education. The point of liberal arts is the broad exposure to different ways of thinking about the world.

Both liberal arts education and humanities have been undermined and need more investment. But liberal arts isn’t just humanities

[Mindysan33]

@Scientist

Liberal arts education is one where students are exposed to many different ways of thinking about the world from multiple view points.

@Scientist

Every liberal arts degree I’ve seen includes sciences in this and requires some science education.

@Scientist

The point of liberal arts is the broad exposure to different ways of thinking about the world.

[Jesse13927]

One of the great things about a liberal arts education is that you don’t even have to decide what you want to study until well into your second year. And you can change your mind in your third year.

[Mindysan33]

If we could get past the “liberal arts are for lazy weirdos” trope, I’d appreciate that. It’s REAL work, real labor to engage with culture, art, history, languages, literature, etc. It’s not some luxury for elite kids trying to figure out “how they want to spend their time”. It’s a fundamental study of humanity, how we make the world and why. That matters. I’m really sick of this whole attitude that people who work with their minds are some how inferior to everyone else. I’m tired of BEING thought inferior. It’s fucking demoralizing dude and pushing these kinds of stereotypes doesn’t help us to see why the humanities matter…

[Jesse13927]

I’m sorry, I think that you meant to reply to someone else?

[Mindysan33]

No, I meant to reply to you. While it’s true that some people in the humanities do change their mind, so do people in non-humanities fields. The idea that humanities scholars are flighty is an old trope that ignores the hard work that goes into those fields.

[Jesse13927]

I knew many people in college who decided on STEM fields in their second year as well as people who decided to add philosophy or history as a second major to a STEM field in their third year.

That’s what liberal arts means. It’s not a synonym for humanities.