Gamifying conversation doesn’t work.
3 Likes
I think we should all accept the heavily marketed game series about the albino Polish steroid addict who is also a sleazy wizard who fights squids in forests without criticism. Who cares if there aren’t any people of color, I want a darn good story about this guy who represents the maximum possible deviation from myself that I feel comfortable roleplaying as.
I mean, if we are too critical, they’ll stop translating them and then I’ll have to learn Polish, and that’s a little out of my comfort zone to be honest.
2 Likes
Your examples are dumb.
Keep polishing the “do not touch” signs on your precious whites-only culture, I’ll be chilling with the cool spidermen.
This is the re-mix generation.
5 Likes
OK. I’ll bite:
Erm… they weren’t. At least not for the myself and the majority of my friends, who actually played the game. We were quite able to see the parallels between Witcher 3’s race relations and those of the real world. The shunning of non-Human characters and their treatment throughout the game made this point and underlined it several times. I don’t see how people could possibly miss this, or how it could be the game’s fault if they did? Medieval Fantasy can differ from the real world and still be a commentary on it in the same way that good science fiction can. It does not need to be an exact representation of our world to make its points about our society resonate with the player.
Well this is just factually incorrect. Having not played Bioshock Infinite I can’t comment on how the characters there are far removed from racism but I can emphatically state that that this supposed neutrality does not apply to Geralt in Witcher 3. My gut feeling is that you are either consciously or subconsciously misrepresenting Geralt in order to make him fit your comparison with the Bioshock characters. Here’s why:
From the very first time Geralt enters a village he is spat at, has his unique Witcher eye colour mocked and he is actually treated with fear and disgust throughout the game simply because he is a Witcher and therefore regarded by ignorant folks as dangerous and ‘other’. It is prejudice borne of ignorance and fear.
These instances are not presented as dramatic cutscenes, just everyday vocal interactions with passing AI characters, which makes them all the more poignant.
Please do not confuse Geralt’s professional, neutral stance in matters of war and politics for a lack of understanding about what it means to be discriminated against. We experience the world through Geralt’s eyes and so the player experiences this discrimination too, by proxy. In this respect the game is actually a fine tool for building empathy and understanding.
With regards to the developers, they are Polish (as others have mentioned) and so have a different sensibility to race as they are not a diverse nation in those terms. This is slowly changing and their lens for looking at race will probably align with the US over time. This does not excuse the lack of black characters in W3 of course. But it does explain that it is less the result of an intractable, 1D view of history and more the result of people living with a folk culture that has not had to confront and explore those issues. The Witcher series has shown that it can grow and evolve politically if given the requisite balance of space and encouragement. The attitudes to sex and relationships in W3 are leaps and bounds ahead of Witcher 2. Still not perfect by a long shot, but definitely an example of people taking constructive criticism on board and producing a more nuanced work as a result.
As for objectivity. Well look, obviously there no such thing as perfect objectivity when it comes to humans. But I view objectivity as a flag atop an impossibly high mountain. It is impossible to reach but that doesn’t mean we stop trying. In fact it is in the striving to get there that we often produce our most empathetic, constructive work as journalists.
Well obviously I agree, both are political points. But it is also a political point to downplay the race commentary in Witcher 3 because it does not fit your narrative. It’s also a political point to suggest that gamers as an audience did not pick up on that commentary. To misrepresent the lead character as someone immune to, or distanced from racism is not only a political decision, but a pretty poor one that can only weaken and distort the discourse around the issue
.
In my polite and considered opinion, this article is an insulting and reductive way of engaging with a diverse and intellectually curious group of people (which for want of a better phrase we’ll call ‘the gaming community’). Because while I agree that the community can sometimes be
it can also be pretty open to looking at things from a fresh perspective. We want better written characters. We want more interesting stories. What we don’t want to see is the people who advocate for these things misrepresenting an artist’s work. Surely that can’t be too much to ask for?
7 Likes
One of the wonderful things about the Witcher world is that it invites complex dialogue on complicated, multifaceted issues. Thanks for sharing your take.
2 Likes
Good points. I haven’t played, but given the games purported depth I thought the article tried too hard on player’s perception when it isn’t even necessary to go into it at all to address why the “historical” defence is nonsensical when it comes to player accommodation.
I wondered how they knew what players thought when it got such good reviews across the board. People playing in depth story-driven RPGs would not give a solid review based on graphics and mechanics alone, in RPG’s the story is always up there with the things that are paramount in all genre.
(disclaimer - I haven’t had time for an RPG since Oblivion, long time ago)
1 Like
Thank you. I’ve been both thinking about and playing Witcher 3 for a while, so I’m happy to offer my two cents. One of the things I am enjoying about about the game is that as a fantasy title, it actually manages to provide a deeper and more interesting commentary on a number of issues than many ‘realistic’ games, which are set in the present day. I’m guessing the source material must be pretty good, so I’m thinking about giving the books a go now!
3 Likes
None of my statements contradict. You’re just splitting hairs, desperately. For instance, no one said the words in the bracket don’t matter, they’re examples, not definitive descriptions. That doesn’t mean they don’t matter, only that you’ve assigned them purposes outside their function.
Face it, no one is persecuting you or the devs. No one is forcing the devs to do anything by criticizing them. If they don’t want to answer criticism and adapt to world markets then they won’t.
Regarding player options in a single player RPG, you said all that mattered at all, when you said “It wouldn’t.” when I asked you how it would detract from your enjoyment if other players had the options discussed.
Everything after that is you defending devs that don’t need or probably even want defending, for no discernible reason, from attacks that aren’t actually occurring. To the effect that you even though it wouldn’t affect you at all, you don’t want other players accommodated, you don’t even want them to be critical. That’s ridiculous.
Poring through my posts seeking to make inferences to manufacture contradictions won’t help you. Like @jerwin sez, it doesn’t work.
1 Like
Agreed. It might just be my fave fantasy game ever, especially due to it’s nuanced take on most things.
I have sad feels for you, FunkyOne. TW3 is leagues beyond the paltry world-building of Oblivion*. Granted, Bethesda does the character creation right and has racially diverse factions (Redguards represent). But in terms of actual narrative, TW3 raises the bar.
*I think Morrowind was Peak Bethesda, in terms of compelling world-building.
3 Likes
Definitely worth your time, I played the first two games when only two books were translated to English - going back to them after having read the whole series added an extra layer of depth. The third game in particular almost requires having read the novels.
2 Likes
Plus, the game has only been released in Polish so we can tell that non-Jewish, non-Romany, non-Lithuanian, non-Russian Polish culture was the target market.
Oh, I messed up my Oblivion file tens of hours in! Thieves Guild related problems. Loved the game, but some bittersweet memories there… If it’s any consolation, my previous RPG experience didn’t count for much with Witcher 3. It’s a different beast altogether.
First off, It puts you into the mindset of the titular character in that you have to approach things methodically. You must research your quarry, apply the appropriate poisons and equipment for the scenario, or the game will heavily punish you. Severely. So it uses the gameplay mechanic to help the player understand and empathise with the gruff, professional thought process of the main character, the way that a movie might use elements of its medium (visuals, dialogue etc) to do the same.
Then we get the fact that the game universe is complex, rich and presents an environment where people are at war and the value of life is cheapening with every passing day. There are also multiple instances of the game tackling fear and prejudice in a very layered and complex manner. For example, there is a Dwarven smith who has been forced to create armor for the enemy Soldiers who have been conquering much of the Witcher’s world.
When you meet him, we find his house has been burned down by one of his fellow villagers, ostensibly because he has been aiding the enemy but really because non-humans are often used as a scapegoat in times of trouble in the Witcher universe. The scene in which the culprit is revealed is genuinely touching and speaks as much to the arsonists misguided motivation as to the Dwarven Smith’s sense of betrayal and hurt. Just because we are in the realm of dwarves doesn’t mean the game can’t give us commentary pertinent to real life. Witcher 3 is chock full of that kind of rounded, empathetic storytelling. Whilst I don’t care much for the main story narrative (at the moment), I love the world in which it is taking place!
4 Likes
Thanks, I’ll definitely check them out. I did kind of get the sense that a lot had transpired between games 2 and 3, but I kind of like that W3 just dumps you in there and asks you to catch up! It’ll be nice to get a greater understanding of the Witcher universe though, so many things are mentioned in passing that I’m intrigued by!
the multicultural USA, where around 10 000 people are killed each year by firearms alone
the issues of gun violence are not the issues of diversity. in fact – with the exception of white extremists, and policing (yikes!) – the statistics of violence do not cross the color divide as much as white folklore would have you believe.
here’s a recent great piece about this if you want to listen, or a link to the study from this piece if you prefer to read. a different article here.
on the other hand, the diversity america does have is a large part of what has enabled it to be so successful. if you want you can read this recent piece in forbes about how diversity in the workplace helps businesses succeed.
women, as an example, help bolster both the workforce and the academic elite. ( forcing 50 percent of people to be homemakers does not a successful nation make. )
diversity means resilience. just as a mono-culture of crops is prone to blight, humans mono-culture too breaks down easily.
Please come by, the cuisine is better here
i love ethnically russian cuisine. if it’s similar. count me in.
in the meantime, when it comes to race and gender issues: if you realize you don’t have actual information – just gut feelings – challenge your own assumptions by doing some reading. open your mind to the concerns raised by people like the author of this boing boing piece.
3 Likes
Oh! What did I miss while hidden away in an archive?
275? Respectable. Keep it up.
4 Likes
I’ve just re-read the OP, to try and make sense of what the author was trying to say against the arguments raised in this thread. I kind of get the feeling that what’s transpiring here is moving away from the OP’s point, which was more “diversity in games is a good thing, and arguing against this is as much a political view as arguing for it”, and it’s turned into a discussion about a specific game.
I’ll start by saying I haven’t read Tauriq Moosa’s article referenced at the beginning - I’ve put 180 hours into TW3 and am only just reaching the end point, so I’ve been avoiding most discussions that may contain spoilers until I finish, at which point I’ll be dredging through them avidly - so I can’t really comment on it. I do know that it infuriated some people at Reddit who most likely saw it as yet another attack on their precious games (raise the pitchforks, men!) so I’m already in favour of Tauriq’s article by default.
However, what I can see is the same thing that happens whenever an episode of Feminist Frequency comes out - people focus on one specific game mentioned and pick out the nits, therefore missing the overall point and the trend which will remain endemic in the gaming industry unless things are discussed.
So yeah, I’m not sure what I can really contribute further here. I agree with the OP’s reasoning, I don’t think The Witcher series necessarily fits the bill but am very happy to discuss it, and I don’t especially wish to be on the side of some of the people arguing with me.
4 Likes
I never thought I’d live to see the day that @funkdaddy was dismissed as a pseudointellectual.
Forgive me, funkmeister, but your avatar airways makes me think we are indeed taking with Mr. Ford.
2 Likes
ORLY?
1 Like
A bazillion times this!
9 Likes
This game was made in Poland. My understanding of Poland is that it is a different country. Is it the author’s belief that works of fiction should demographically reflect that of the United States no matter where they are produced? How else should the rest of the world cater to American proclivities? Do you go to Chinese restaurants and demand ketchup?
