Wealth šŸ’°

What, you mean poor people didn’t get their phones (total luxury items in American society, btw) in exchange for voting for Obama? /s

Galling is the word. Those ā€œstrapping young bucksā€ buying t-bone steaks and welfare queens driving around in Cadillacs: so many moochers in this country, living high on the hog off the sweat of the brows of real, hard-working (white) Americans. /s

[I shouldn’t have to use the /s tag, but there are still too many empathy-challenged ā€œfreeā€-market fundies who buy into these BS 40-year-old racism-infused narratives]

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… but that had to and has to be allowed, both for the profits of the shareholder class as well as stretching out the conceit that we’re still living in the post-war economic anomaly.

In reality, as the actual middle class has dwindled during the march to late-stage capitalism, consumer debt has become of a way of maintaining an illusion of wealth for those who aren’t in the top 10% where actual wealth is increasingly concentrated.

Combined with consumerism in general, it has a creeping effect, too: people making the median or higher income digging themselves into ruinous debt just so they can drive around in a luxury car or live in a McMansion or show off designer clothes and accessories or have a money-pit hobby. Over the years I’ve had to help a few friends who had solid jobs and who made good money navigate their way from the brink of bankruptcy due to this situation.

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Sad to say it, but there are a lot of seniors who have also been sucked into the false makers-vs-takers narrative against the poor. Decades of work followed by increasing taxes after retirement led to more struggle than they expected. So, they resent seeing anyone get what they perceive to be a handout in housing, education, and food when that assistance didn’t exist for them (different economic times).

When they bring up school breakfast and lunch programs, SNAP benefits, and subsidized housing, no argument I make about changes in costs or the economy makes a difference.

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They’ve been sounding the alarm about this for years, but it shows no sign of slowing. This was before coronavirus, I’m not sure I want to look at where it is now:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-household-debt/u-s-household-debt-tops-14-trillion-and-reaches-new-record-idUKKBN20521Z

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And against the young. It’s been going on for a long time. California Prop 13 put a multi-generation dent in public K-12 education funding because retirees were convinced that paying for local schools gave them no benefit since their own kids were long out of the house.

The pathetic part is, as you note, that those making the Libertarian war cry of ā€œI’ve got mine, Jackā€ often haven’t got much at all.

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Making everyone else fight for scraps is all part of the plan for TPTB. I’m sure this is why current efforts to reform or remake current policy (and get rid of people in power) is causing them concern. I hope they’re more worried than they’ve ever been before.

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Y’know, I have read all the way through this, er, thread* reminds me of something I recently read somewhere, about how sharing is actually more robust a survival trait than selfishness for species. The anecdotal example of how one type of canine decided to cooperate with humans instead of competing, and now look at how well dogs are doing in comparison to wolves. Or humans to chimpanzees. Things like that.

It also is pretty telling that society as a whole does better when its individual members cooperate. I mean, if they didn’t, there wouldn’t be a society to begin with, right? And yet, some competition is healthy, as it encourages improvements. And so a healthy society strikes a balance between rewarding those who move things forward, and spreading the gains around to all members.

And that’s what the problem is here. Karl Marx was actually a big fan of capitalism as a step-stone to a more fair society, as it did sweep away the much less fair systems of aristocracy and theocracy, where power was claimed to come from an unseen god, or because Great Grandpa was a murderous bully who took over. It’s just that as a system, Capitalism lacks a way to keep itself in check, to tell someone ā€œokay, that’s enough, now let the others play alongā€.

I am more of a fan of Socialism, which Marx himself hated, because it keeps capitalism from destroying itself. Socialism basically tries to use elected governments to put caps on capitalism, to keep the munchkin players of Monopoly in check, because the worst thing that can happen in real life is for someone to win, to sit on their pile of goodies and stop everyone else from even entering the game. Or using their winnings to make sure the rules never apply to them any more.

So yeah, distribute the wealth. This isn’t some Prisoner’s Dilemma game, because those games are one-offs, cases of grab the winnings and not deal with the consequences.

*I won’t call it a discussion, and it isn’t really that much of an argument either. It’s a… thread.

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You might want to remind them that the government gave out subsidies and perks as if it were giving out candy at Halloween during the late 1940s and 1950s, so in fact there is nothing going on now that remotely equals the ā€˜welfare’ they themselves got when they were younger.

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I’m talking about folks who were denied those perks, because of race.

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Ah, yes, that’s different. THEY have a legitimate beef.

Except, aren’t we supposed to want to see progress? Isn’t that what people march and protest about? You can’t change the past, so changing the trajectory toward the future is our only option.

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I know. It’s something we see in a lot of areas in society where progress was very slow to non-existent in the past. For example, I cringe when older actresses are asked to weigh in on #MeToo, or elderly Black people are asked about defunding or abolishing the police. Those asking the questions are doing it on purpose, to undermine broad public support for progress. If they can successfully cause inter-generational conflict, they get to keep their power and wealth.

If a person had to tolerate abuse, harassment, assault, racism, injustice, and economic inequity, they shouldn’t wish it on anyone else - or begrudge the creation of a society where those things are gone so others won’t have to struggle. That kind of struggle is not character-building or strengthening (in a good way). It’s soul-sucking, traumatizing, and exhausting. We need to pursue progress in a way that also appeals to the better nature of those who’ve been harmed, and includes ways to help those people to heal. When the WIIFM argument is raised, there needs to be a solid and consistent answer.

That’s easier to do when talking about money or wealth.

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Ftr I got my Chinese smartphone new for a hundred or so and my first iPhone was given to me by a co-worker who wanted a new one and didn’t want the old one. There is a lot to balance in the US. First of all if you want to get ahead socially you cannot seem poor. To get ahead and climb out of poverty you have to look less like what people imagine poverty looks like. Then there’s the conflict between financial instability and irresponsibility being literally HOW a debt driven society NEEDS people to behave to function. If everyone hoarded money like they would have to to improve their circumstances we would be overrun with abandoned people, homeless children, and the economy would collapse due to lack of spending.

I was just watching a video about a homeless woman who won a month of free phone service after she was seen in a previous video. Homeless people can often get hold of phones but the plans pose a challenge. One month of free phone service and she was able to get a job and into a small apartment. Phones are important. They aren’t a luxury anymore. We don’t live in the old days or in some remote location where they don’t matter. That, like the way the economy works, needs to be accepted and understood first before worrying about what poor people have or don’t have. Context is everything.

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I also wonder why anyone imagines it matters what we consider wealthy. For me personally I consider wealth to imply something exceptional to the norm in whatever group is being considered and so I wouldn’t have the same definition or impression as others might since I have that assumption from the outset. Wealth to me is relative to what it’s being compared to and so has no real bottom or top to it. It’s a nebulous word that can be confusing so I don’t see what relationship it has to what seems like a separate question about social policy. I care about what kind of society we create not about who is or isn’t poor or wealthy according to whatever mood I might happen to be in.

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For some, that’s easier said than done. It can make poverty even worse by diverting money into appearance that could be spent in other ways. Part of the problem in addressing poverty in the US is a belief people hold that they are not or cannot be poor, because of preconceived ideas about how impoverished people look, dress, or live.

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Unless it is libertarian socialism.

I will repeat: there is no requirement for a government within socialism.

It was reformism that Karl Marx had a problem with, not socialism. That is where the government keep their power.

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The anecdotal example I usually use is hemoglobin cooperating with nerve cells. Or how about mitochondrial DNA cooperating with nuclear DNA. Like, non-cooperation is a viable strategy for dust, not for life.

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Especially in the US context, seniors generally had a lot more ā€œhandoutsā€ than young people. The white middle class Boomers were massively subsidised during the Cold War, and the US welfare state has been decaying for decades.

Also:

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This is interesting, and led me to wonder about conservative people in the middle - neither poor, nor wealthy. I tried to find more details for various age groups, but the ranges for Boomers and Gen X don’t look consistent. These are from 2018 and 2019:

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