Why Facebook changed its friends icon

[GlyphGryph]

@AcerPlatanoides

So, you know I am, but what are you? And you’re taking your ball and stomping feet all the way home?

I can’t parse this sentence. Can you clarify?

@AcerPlatanoides

Only from where you are standing am I in your shadow, sir. I project a great shadow, clearly.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

But seriously, do you honestly not see that asdadsas is using the same sort of dishonest rhetoric that Gamergaters use when they claim it’s about “ethics in journalism”? I apologize if I jumped to conclusions about your behaviour when I should have given you the benefit of a doubt - but I was, after all, burned twice previously in this very thread by people to whom I gave the benefit of the doubt only to be met by a smug unwillingness to communicate in an honest way.

[popobawa4u]

@albill

Who cares about all cultures everywhere?

One might suppose, those people who declare that social trends they observe apply everywhere, to everybody. This was precisely my point - if you are not trying to discuss all cultures everywhere, then being more specific can help.

@albill

We’re (that is, everyone but you here) talking about current culture now and for the last few hundred years.

Deciding that it is everybody but me seems like a rhetorical device to characterize and isolate my input here. As to say, it is not only you who disagree with what I am saying - but rather - it is everybody. Is it not ironic that this is a response to my observation of universality? There are hardly any absolutes in human life, but an outsider might not guess this, since most of the language and cognitive models seem to suggest that “everything” is neatly polarized. How could any of this possibly be relevant to a discussion about social biases, I wonder… ?

Anyway, “current culture” is fine, but it is a plurality. Feel free to comment upon your culture of choice, and tell us which one it is you are talking about. Like I said, “white people” might be the norm where you are, but they obviously aren’t everywhere. Even in just the US, various regions and subcultures have hugely divergent perspectives on these issues, even today.

@albill

Please name a current culture that isn’t racist and sexist.

No, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to do this. But, as I did just point out:

@popobawa4u

Even if it was true that all cultures everywhere have always been racist and sexist, this in no way suggests that they have all been biased for/against the same sexes or races.

Even if we can agree that there are prevalent attitudes for/against racism, sexism, etc everywhere - it does not appear that they manifest the same way in every culture, biased for/against the same people as in others.

@albill

Quit moving the goalposts.

Realistically, we’d need to each be able to explicitly state our goals here. If we operate under the presumption that they are the same, because we imagine this makes communication or action somehow easier, we might find ourselves confused or disappointed. As I was saying, I think it’s both easier and more effective to avoid sexist stereotypes in the first place. My goals and methodologies are probably just different from yours. But that’s fine, provided that neither of us relies upon the mental shorthand of assuming that we all think and mean the same things, which can be packaged into tidy little token ideological camps.

[GlyphGryph]

Haha, I don’t know why I even thought to give you the benefit of a doubt when you make multiple paragraph ad hominems like this.

Try engaging honestly with other people for once, you might be surprised at how much more rewarding it is where you aren’t constantly playing gotcha over things you’d made up.

Here’s a link for you in return:

Tu quoque

[SamSam]

@popobawa4u

it does not appear that they manifest the same way in every culture, biased for/against the same people as in others.

This is the weirdest version of cultural relativism I’ve ever heard.

“Because there might theoretically be cultures with the opposite biases as ours, we shouldn’t do anything to fix the sexist imagery prevalent in ours.”

[popobawa4u]

@SamSam

“Because there might theoretically be cultures with the opposite biases as ours, we shouldn’t do anything to fix the sexist imagery prevalent in ours.”

How did you get this from what I wrote here? What did I say that you interpreted as “not doing anything”?

What I am saying is that these symbols are stereotypes to begin with, which is a more fundamental problem than choosing which stereotype gets preferential treatment. I consider it analogous to making a welcome sign for my hypothetical restaurant which shows symbolically-simplified depictions of white, black, and asian stereotypes sitting together for a nice meal. Sure, there is a somewhat welcoming intent behind it, but this could be seen as offset somewhat by using stereotyped pictures to begin with. Using such images is going to strike some people as more caricature than inclusiveness. Changing where they sit does not make them cease to be offensive stereotypes! That might be accomplished by using some different kind of symbols. I am not claiming to have The Definitive Answer here, but rather offering a different framing of the problem, which might in turn suggest different possible solutions to emerge.

And no, I doubt if there is even a unified “our culture”. For the Nth time, even in the US right now, people do not share the same biases. How could acknowledging this not be relevant, when otherwise, we would not be having this discussion?

[anon68952647]

@GlyphGryph

I don’t know why I even thought to give you the benefit of a doubt when you make multiple paragraph ad hominems like this.

I never have much cared what people -thought- to do. I care what they do. You have not offered anyone the benefit of the doubt as far as I can see (please do point out where that was?) but it was a very generous thought. I hope you didn’t get “burned” considering someone elses opinion, or reconsidering your own!!

Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back!