Women engineers refute sexism with #iLookLikeAnEngineer campaign

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I’m not standing up for this type of behavior but think about it in the opposite more personal way.

A lot of nerdy/geeky/tech oriented kids didn’t exactly grow up being pulled into a world of social skills. When you are picked on and ostracized for being nerdy, at typically the hands of the more popular/attractive kids, it creates a very specific way of looking at the world and yourself. Why should you feel attractive when everyone tells you that you are not? Move forward to the real world and now you find yourself thrust into a situation where an attractive woman is working with/beside you. Of course you are subconsciously putting her on a pedestal, a lot of your life experiences have molded you to this action. She represents some holy grail, that if she liked you back, would nullify all the other things people have said to you over the years. (Which also leads to some issues of you being both hot and cold toward her…)

Of course we know it won’t and there are psychological issues here deeper than simple social awkwardness… As someone who was that outcast kid in school I never saw myself as being attractive, even as an adult I still don’t. I think school today does little if anything to teach social skills and how to interact and respect others. You are right when you say she’s just a person, everyone is, we all have baggage/issues.

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Yeah, but when our baggage/issues hurt other people, we are responsible for that hurt. Everyone knows that some people have low self esteem from an early life of being bullied - it’s not a revelation. Neither is the fact that the vast majority of humanity is senselessly cruel to our fellow people. Empathy and compassion are skills we have to practice, so when someone points out that putting a woman on a pedestal because she is attractive to you is a shitty way to act, and people seem unwilling to learn that lesson, it’s just frustrating.

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Trust me. you don’t want to know what I think of this…

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It’s like a land bridge. There’s certain times where they don’t overlap (and you get to be taken seriously), but most of the time it’s submerged under the tides of institutionalized sexism.

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I have just one problem with this. It supports the shallow, stupid idea that engineers — who are women? — are somehow better engineers, or at least better, if they resemble Isis more than Grace Hopper.

Glamorizing everything is a great distraction, and another irrelevant hurdle for highly competent people who just don’t clean up that pretty.

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Well they might not even realize they’re doing it so much as ‘holy shit i don’t want to scare these people off’ since, least personal experience talking, I am well aware of my social failings and don’t want to be the reason someone that ticks every single box leaves.

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Pedestal-ing them might be one of the reasons they leave, though. Ticking your boxes isn’t the reason they’re around in the first place. She’s not there to date you or anyone else, she’s there to do a job she’s good at.

It’s okay to sometimes be a conversational blunderbuss, all noise and scattershot. We all are sometimes. It’s how we learn not to be, by acknowledging the stupid, shitty things we do and working to make them better. Other people’s reactions are not something you can control - if she leaves, it’ll be HER choice doing it, not YOUR action. That should take some of the pressure off, anyway. :slight_smile:

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Why does how they look matter at all? If they are wearing a naval uniform or a low cut top and heels is irrelevant. If someone can’t be around someone because of their manner of dress, and they have a problem with it, it’s THEIR PROBLEM, not woman who is dressed however.

how one dresses is not any indicator competence, which includes nerdy dudes and dressed up ladies…

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Actually in my own attempts at pinning down the whole ‘social’ thing I’ve found that to be the exact opposite of reality. No matter what people say or claim they are the ones that want to be right, especially if you’re saying otherwise. People don’t want to listen, by and large, to your problems. They don’t care about you beyond what they can get out of you, and if you shake the boat even if you did’t mean to and have been told time and again that a little shaking things is OK the odd guy out will get removed.

Plus do you want to be known as The Guy That Is Why She Left? you thought you were a social pariah before? Hoooboy.

Edit: All of that bleakness on social interactions could just be I’m that sodding bad at it or that I’m skewed to the point of having to unlearn a lot of things just so I can learn others. As with all things your mileage can and will vary. I’ve just had group dynamics end with me as the odd guy out often enough to have a fairly dim view. This is nothing personal or with malicious intent. It simply is.

All thi from a guy who wants to believe the world can and will be better, that his niece will learn from our mistakes so she can make whole new ones instead of simple retread, and that things have gotten better in our lifetimes in spite of all the doom and gloom being hurled about.

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I guess I have reservations about the whole campaign to make a technical career safe for cute hipsters, and conversely. If your hot-or-not index is high or low… why do we give a rat’s, once again?

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That’s the point, though. Some people DO care. They think an attractive woman isn’t capable of smarts. People shouldn’t look at a person, based on their looks, make a judgement about their professional abilities.

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White hot plasma rage canon?

Speaking of which, I need to start building my White hot plasma rage canon. (Though honestly this topic has me sighing in frustration a lot)

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I think this is called ‘first world problem’. Do foreigners sit around and create new imaginary problems? Everyday on Boing Boing ‘someone somewhere being mean to someone on Internet. it’s outrage!’

Here in China we were just told women cannot have their eggs frozen to put off pregnancy. This is huge issue for women in startup and tech. We still don’t have a single domestic violence law. Husband can beat us and child half to death and no problem. Cannot legal have baby without marriage. Marriage property in most cases is paid for by both husband and wife but now usually belongs to men and is not split after divorce. Have real problems. Don’t need to make up silly ones.

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Holy shit!

I make jokes and while I am intelligent, I don’t claim to free of ignorance. I appreciate that you took the time to respond and I also appreciate that I now know something I didn’t.

(Doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop working on the plasma canon though :slight_smile: )

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These are all serious issues. I don’t think that we should ignore them, or not lend support to women in China when we can. That being said, I don’t live in china.There isn’t much I can do about these problems, other than to push my government to support UN initiative that enshrines these rights into international treaties that both countries will be willing to sign. Just like you can’t fix issues here in the US. I fully support global frameworks that actively support other women in other countries, as should we all. When women are free to control their bodies in all aspects of life and laws are passed to protect women from domestic violence (and men) we all win.

But that doesn’t mean harassment, disenfranchisement, and pay disparity in the work place and online, not to mention violence against women, bodily autonomy rights, and issues around reproductive health aren’t real issues here in the US that need to be addressed or that I should ignore them when they do impact me and other women here.

The point is that we shouldn’t care how a woman dresses or looks in the work place, as long as she can do the work. Unfortunately attitudes about how women should look still impact how women in traditionally male dominated fields get treated. It’s sad, but all too often true, that some people will not take women seriously, even if her engineering work is on par with her peers.

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You are right of course. But was offering my perspective. We all focus on problems near us. Reasonable. I am also like your ‘Boy named Sue’ always have to prove myself so don’t see big deal in being underestimate. But no one here is mean about it. I have no experience with the Western office.

Yes. But is this really about that? What’s final goal of all this?

90% of those tweet:
‘People say I don’t look like an engineer. What they mean is I’m too pretty. Look. Here’s picture of me looking pretty. Looooook. I’m pretty right? Oh. P.S. I’m also oppressed.’

As someone known for liking attention. I know attention seeking behavior when I see. Which is ok. Richard Branson attention seeking businessman. But I admit and laugh at myself about it. Attention seeking using excuse ‘raising awareness’ about being oppressed. Kind of bullshit?

If real problem work together with real solution. If ‘solution’ involve posting their favorite pictures…little hard to be sure not something else going on. Think word is ‘humble-brag’? Way to show off while pretending not. This looks like that. Annoy men by blame them for problem everyone has and annoy less attractive women who know it’s just weak excuse at the same time.

I’ve been plain and I’ve been attractive. Sorry but attractive women have very very small problem compare to plain one and should look out for sisters not treated so well. not complain they get poorly phrase compliment.

Problem may be real. Don’t think this hashtag really ‘refutes’ sexism? The guys who are actual sexist won’t feel anything ‘refuted’. The problem guys won’t care about this. Will just make joke about wanting to hire pretty engineer. The other people not their job to solve someone else problem for them.

  1. Are men more judgmental about woman appearance than other woman? I have only little experience with Western women. Several had big problem with how I look. Even though not related to competence. Halo Effect is real. It’s cognitive bias. Can’t just say ‘don’t do that’. I have not seen any study it linked to man more than woman.

  2. In China. Normally woman would avoid guy who blames problems on women. Not really a good sign in personal life. In professional quite bad if they speak badly about female coworker. If they go on internet and say we women mistreat them at work? Unlikely we would be willing to work with them again. All these woman have guys they work with. After this. Those guys. I do not think they will listen to these women or want to work with them. I would not. If you have to work with men in a male dominate industry. This is probably not useful way to solve problem. If that was even original goal. I have never seen hashtag solve anything. Just easy way to complain. If trying to really solve problem tactic is a very poor one. What end game?

Less of a problem here. If women engineer undervalued or mistreated in US it seems would be great opportunity? Have all women engineering firm. Do better work for less money than male firms. Maybe hire few guys for ‘face’ of business? It seems to be an all women engineering team of proven competent would do more to fight perception problem. Can say something is wrong or can prove it wrong.

Honestly I just don’t know about these things. Of course sometimes we Chinese go on Weibo or Wechat try to get some sympathy when we feel bad. But from outsiders perspective very odd to expect others to actual solve problem for you because of twitter. I thought you have shortage of engineer in the US? If men don’t take you seriously work without them. Or get so good they can’t afford not to hire you and they can’t afford to be rude in case you quit. What does complaining accomplish that harder work and diligence cannot do?

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Which I appreciate. Americans (even people who consider themselves progressive, like feminists, etc) have a tendency to not think about the rest of the world, and it’s good for us to hear other perspectives on issues like this one.

To not be judged by appearances in the work place I’d say, whether a woman is attractive or not (by others, not oneself). The work you do should stand on its own merits… But again, this might be a specific problem in the west. And this isn’t just a problem for engineers, either (I’m a historian, another field which historically has been dominated by men, but not as much anymore).

Well, I guess what’s the context of attention seeking. When I write a paper, or present a paper at conference, I don’t want people staring at my body. I want them to listen to my argument I’m presenting, and ask questions which will push me to write better scholarship. I think it’s probably about context, though. I think when an engineer, who happens to be a woman, works, she wants her work to stand on its own merits, not getting by on her looks. Which has long been a harmful stereotype about women in the West, that they don’t care about the work, they only want attention.

I think the point is to raise awareness. when some guys, especially sexists guys see a woman who is in an engineering position, they might think, if she’s attractive, that she only got the job because of her looks (or she slept her way into the job) and that she can’t do the job and they won’t take her seriously. It’s demoralizing. Pointing out that looks aren’t connected to intelligence matters.

Depends on the man. But yes, women can indeed be judgmental as well.

I’d say it’s better to say that this sort of attitude of judging by appearances bothers the individual and why it bothers the individual.

that’s likely true, if it’s the only thing going on.

I don’t think that’s really true much. Tons of people are going into engineering or computer science. The solution seems to me to be getting more women in the industry who are good at their jobs. Most men will eventually come to respect you if you got the chops. But there is always going to be those guys who will never take women seriously, and honestly, that’s THEIR problem. But it affects women and their work. That’s the problem I think…

But I think you might be right about hashtags! In the states we call that “slacktavism” because it’s the laziest form of “fixing” a problem you can have!

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And a like just for citing Johnny Cash. :panda_face:

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Two things for @sexycyborg and @Mindysan33

  • the Boy Named Sue reference made my day
  • second, I need to think about what I say more. Not to be careful or pandering, but to be enlightened.

BB will continue to be a repository of irreverent, mostly western conversations. The editors, to my knowledge are all white westerns. So bias is going to happen.

But my selfish point of view is that I like arguments against for or against bias, since it makes me question my own beliefs.

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I can give an individual example from another field. I spent a decade getting a particular group of executives and investors I’m involved with comfortable with the idea of a woman (with many other differences to them) sitting at the conference table with them. It took years before I could be assured of finishing my statements and having them be treated AS IF a man had said them. And then, the chief executive had to take a hasty early retirement because he was diagnosed with cancer (fortunately, doing OK). He was about to name me for the board. The incoming executive is much more conventional in every way – and quite a bit younger – and it’s become clear that even if I work at this for another decade he’s not going to promote me over men.

In other words, it doesn’t matter how good you are or how hard you work. China has many issues, as does the U.S., but one thing China has going for it is less of a sense that women are “other” who literally cannot do the same jobs than men can. An all-women engineering company, for example, won’t get as much business because of this prejudice. Yes, there are examples of women or minorities who managed to rise above the norm anyway, but that’s not enough to change the underlying thinking at a societal level.

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