CNN struggles to figure out how to address Manning as female

I am pretty sure almost all of those style guides require that the request actually be confirmed. Since it is impossible to contact Manning at this point, the request is of an unconfirmed nature and the Associated Press, for example, has directed reporters to not use gender-specific pronouns at all until this request can be confirmed.

Further, this is only in regards to gender. Names in most style books default to the legal name. Until Manning can legally alter the name, the stylebook would still insist that they refer to the individual in the following way: Bradley “Chelsea” Manning. They also do not typically refer to him as Brad Manning, despite this perhaps being his previous preference.

It’s far from perfect, but I would encourage you to watch “Transamerica.” It’s probably the most easily-accessible film out there that portrays a trans person in a fairly complex, human way. (“Boys Don’t Cry” would be a candidate as well, but I found it so traumatic to watch that I’m hesitant to recommend it.) I assign it to students in my graduate human sexuality/sex therapy classes on a regular basis, and I find that for those who have little to no experience with trans people, it’s a very good, empathetic 101. The new documentary “Trans” is also great, but harder to get access to.

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So glad the bootstraps you were born with apparently fit you reasonably well.

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well in that case I wish to be addressed as The Lord Almighty of the Ether going forward…and whoa be unto anyone who isn’t sensitive to my demands.

I’m just curious, if a line has to be drawn somewhere, what is it dividing? What’s socially acceptable and what isn’t? Who we can show contempt for and who we must mask our contempt for?

It’s almost impossible to know what is going on with people except on an individual level. Once you get to that level, you either want to be around the person or you don’t.

I’ve known people who have changed their name because they don’t want to share names with the person who molested them throughout childhood. It may seem trivial to those who don’t know the reasons, but no one should really be forced to explain themselves like that. Whose business is it anyway?

Besides, in what world is changing whatever you can or think you should not “playing with the hands you were dealt?” You certainly can’t help where you were born, but there’s no reason to call some parents “family.” The way I see it you maximize the options you can find.

I suppose I don’t see the honor in doing something in order to be seen as honorable. What’s the point? Honor sounds like something they carve on a tombstone, it’s something others say about you. Happiness seems better suited for living.

I’m not trying to chew you out, I just find it interesting. I used to be a sort of grim believer in learned helplessness. I lost literally all of my youth to it because I thought I had to take what was given and ask for no more. I got myself through by imagining some how there was some great honor in bearing this suffering to the grave. I became completely complicit in my own abuse. In this state I developed a lot of contempt for people who seemed to be defying the rules. Why do they get to be free and not me? I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, I’m being what people are supposed to be so why am I so miserable? But the contempt in my case was misplaced. I didn’t want to face my own shame in having sacrificed myself to a noble sounding word for fear. The door had been off of the cage a long time, it was me who wouldn’t take responsibility for improving what was left of my life. No one owed me anything but me.

Realizing this changed the way I felt about other people, their decisions, the way we condition each other socially. I’ve now come to the conclusion that the rest of the world will probably do everything possible to make your life as bad as it needs to be. What’s left is up to you.

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What’s the appropriate gender pronoun for you? Because that’s the topic.

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You feel the same deep loathing for female to male transexuals? What about M to F who stay in relationships with their female partners throughout the transition? Are they just becoming the women that women want them to be?

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I hope I won’t regret engaging this issue on such a public forum. I am going to dive-in, though, because I have loved BoingBoing for so many years and do respect the commentators here.

I think I have something constructive to add, but only in regard to a certain segment finding themselves struggling with accepting the transgender population. The people who want legal definitions and objective criteria, and who have a sense of this general feeling about “how much to indulge” other people’s “whims”.
I think it is only a certain personality type seems to have issues with this, but certainly a sizable demographic. These issues easily lead to a caricature in their mind (or am I fooled by taking people at their word, and those giving voices to these concerns are disingenuous?)…“what’s next?”, they say, “people demanding they be referred to as a turnip?”
They raise slippery slope arguments (In the marriage debates, the ones who brought up comparisons with bestiality).
Maybe as much as personality type, it is “those who don’t know someone personally” affected by the issue. That’s through no fault of their own. Many of us are introverts and don’t know many people period, regardless of orientation, etc.
In any case, you know who you are. And so for those of that way of thinking, and I suppose I count myself, if not among them, then very sympathetic, it is to you I address this.

Many of us realize it is not up to us to police others and to the extent possible just toss up our hands and say to each their own, “I don’t care”. That’d be harmless except the world does need us to take a stand, at some point, and sometimes silence inflicts its own harm. So let’s first get that out of the way. I’m telling you to think about this as if you had a vote.
Returning to the specific issue of transgender people and their wishes, for me, the refrain I hear in my head is, “What would these people do a hundred years ago?” (I am a big fan of history, but also given to the Naturalistic Fallacy, which I like to think came about from growing up in the Cold War and always thinking the end of Civilization was nigh, and we’d all have to fend for ourselves in a post-apocalypse world wherein we really would be driven back to our natural state)
Most of my life, the answer to that question seemed to be, “they’d just have to deal with it”.
But finally I have come to realize that such an answer is too pat. Many would, in plain fact, not been able to “deal with it”, but would have turned to suicide or lived lives racked with pain and self-ruin.
Some of you will find that acceptable (in fact, a disturbing amount will, and I’d love to start a thread of discussion on that matter some day… all of those “thinning the herd” types, I hope you will have a chance someday to be debated to your satisfaction on the matter).
This is the pivot in my understanding that is crucial. Would I be willing to countenance someone killing themselves over this?

How do you distinguish between what is merely a character-building challenge versus really a life-destroying crucible? Isn’t that where minds like our’s go next, ever challenging any complications to the cut-and-dried world we seek…
I think it is fitting to leave that unanswered for now, but to advise taking a step outside of the box of logic we would build, and, if you feel compelled to doubt the voiced struggles, do that with more precision, and focus on the self-harm transgender people are capable of.

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Actually, dudes, there are a lot of people in the world who have been fighting for trans people’s rights around the globe who are very legitimately interested in the current public spotlight on this, even though it’s not your favorite subject. Boo-hoo, you have to sit back and let someone else have a minute to do their thing.

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Significant is a relative term. There are actually very few compared to other minority groups.

If Manning is now a “she”, how should one properly refer to a woman with a physiologically female body in order to distinguish her from a woman with a physiological “male” body?

Beyond “I acknowledge that your psyche, if not your body, is female”, I’m not sure why its important that I know whether someone’s psychological gender matches their physiological gender. I don’t really care. To be blunt, if we’re hooking up, I need to know which kind of equipment you’re packing. If not, it simply doesn’t matter.

If the authorities don’t regconise her transition while in military prison that’s fine, Until Manning starts living as a woman (not exactly possible in a male prison) and I don’t mean with hormone therapy I mean just living in the world as a woman.

I think it’s fine to use the male pronoun in this situation because he is not living as a woman yet.

At the moment I can imagine a lot of news agencies, and people, needing something more than saying I want to live as a woman to accept Bradley as Chelsea even if it is basically symbolic. As he is in this weird prison related stasis that means they can’t get that so he’s still a he in their eyes.

I tend to sympathize with that view and when the US govt. recognise Bradley as Chelsea (after his release most likely), via offical name or gender change or he is clearly living as a she so will I as I don’t think it should simply be enough to say, I want to live as a a woman but doing nothing else for people to start changing pro-nouns.

I think transgender people are going to have understand progress will not be as smooth as it was with acceptance of gay people because it’s a very different sort of issue, with a lot of vagaries and complications, and an angry transgender/allies brigade online (who can be very venomous in a way few other minority groups are online) aren’t necessarily the most helpful.

They could tell because of the pixels.

but you didn’t then have the US govt. (in this case Army) saying we do not at present recognise this change.

And stage names are a different thing.

Are you saying that it’s not important to distinguish trans people from cis-people of their perceived sex/gender unless they themselves desire to be distinguished as trans, instead of just as a man or a woman? If that’s what you were saying, you are so right on top of this new wave that you can see the beach from where you’re riding.

Trans identities, feminist identities, queer identities, intersex identities, anrogenous identities, and the list goes on and on. So aren’t you also excited about how language evolves? And getting to watch it? And make suggestions?

Fuck, in the ginormous Spanish Speaking world, you have to use gendered adjectives. Adjectives! Every time you want to say ‘happy’ or ‘late’ or ‘confused’ or most anything else descriptive, you have to use a gendered word. And students, internet citizens, activists, intellectuals and blogs and newspapers are dealing with it- usually by replacing the masculine (default, ‘cause, hey) ‘o’ with an @ or ‘x’ (i.e. "Los inscriptos’ [those enrolled in a course or program] would change to either ‘Lxs inscriptxs’ or L@s inscript@s’) though lately I have been reading some cool youngsters using a ‘y’ to make it a cute ‘inscriptys’ which also riffs on how English has become even more of an influence in the digital age.

Anyhoo, point is, if we can manage this, you can manage it, too.

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“I don’t give a shit one way or the other that the gays can’t get married.”
“Why should I care whether women are allowed to vote? It doesn’t affect me.”
“It’s none of my business that a black man got lynched.”

Not giving a shit about bigotry doesn’t make you neutral. It makes you a bigot.

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Yeah. This just follows the craptastic laws in the US, where most states seem to require people to get psychological permission from a shrink in order to contract (expensive, private) MD’s to give you treatments in order for the government to (sometimes) ‘allow’ you to change your documents. No wonder the thugs of the establishment can do no better. Gawds.

(Shameless pitch here) Remember kiddies, Argentina has one of the world’s most progressive gender identity laws where one’s self perceived gender and sex are the only say-so required to get a legal name and sex change, with or without any physical treatments or visual correlations between the declared sex and the ‘looks like a’ sex. These kinds of laws can be fought for and won. Get cracking. That said, I don’t think there’s been much local address of prison populations yet, so if Chelsea were in the can here, I doubt her particular case would be much better.

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I’m a little more optimistic. Yes, the Chelsea Manning controversy shows terrible anti-trans bigotry, but I think trans kids already expect that. It also shows that a lot of cis people will fight fiercely for trans rights, and that is probably less expected to the average trans kid.

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Are you upset that they require people to seek out a doctor before beginning a medical procedure? wow!!

So do you also believe people with BIID should be able to just walk in and request that their arm be amputated, no psychological consultation necessary?