Oh. I thought it had been established that they were the same thing (which surprised me), and now I find out… the jury’s out, and gotten all mixed up, and…
Anyway. My point was related to multiple threads in the bbs where people who come off as emotionless are presumed to be [experiencing some sort of -pathology], as opposed to something less sinister and far more common.
I don’t think that’s what they are doing at all. What they are really doing by saying “just be logical” is hoping that no one in the room goes after their assumptions (logic is an empty vessel that you have to put assumptions into and that does nothing on its own). Their assumptions are wrong and often even hateful. But their experience is that when they use that way of speaking, people get upset and go away and they “win” by default - and that is what they are trying to do, sate their own emotional need to be validated.
They aren’t ignoring your emotions or blaming you for them, they are weaponizing your emotions against you. I have real success stories of getting trollies off of boards by responding to their driving trollies in a way that makes it clear that I am not up for emotional bullying (and, to be honest, that sometimes covertly does a little bit of emotional bullying back). I’ve accomplished that by using the exact kind of reasoning that @popobawa4u advocates: understanding the system and how the different parts of it function without judgement and also using judgement to determine how to act on that analysis.
I know that to be human is to have emotions. But there are also different ways of experiencing emotions. Usually when someone well outside of the mainstream experience expresses themselves they are shouted down. That happens to people because of their race, sexual orientation, sexual identity, disabilities, neuro-atypical status, etc. There have been lots of trollies on these boards using “logic” as a way to import status quo assumptions and shout down the experience of others. That’s not the same as approaching things from an unusual angle that looks unemotional to you because they experience the world differently.
The most telling part of @popobawa4u’s narrative is that their opinions on homelessness are shouted down despite them actually having been homeless for a significant stretch of time. That’s insane to me. We need to develop the emotional fortitude to listen to other people describe their experience in their own way. That includes anger from groups that have been mistreated, but it also includes unusual forms of expression from people who may be neuro-atypical, mentally ill, or just different.
See, I experience my emotions as mud that I have to wade through to go about my life. Most people diagnosed with the same mental health disorder as me don’t have friends, can’t hold jobs, and can’t maintain relationships. You see your emotions as a natural part of yourself. I see mine as a dangerous environment that would leave me homeless and friendless if I didn’t actively fight it constantly. They aren’t errors, they are actively antagonistic.
I can respect other people’s emotions, but I don’t expect anyone to respect mine or how I experience them. That’s because I have been taught by experience that it is never going to happen, and because I’m not really convinced they are respect-worthy.
Is very frustrating to me. I can’t express my ideas succinctly. How would I take what I’ve said above and boil it down into an easy to read few lines? I try to write as little as possible because my experience is that every sentence is an opportunity for someone to pounce, but I still end of writing a lot or I just can’t say what I mean.
For a long time people with autism were assumed to be hyposensitive because if you watching them, for example, get an injection, they often react much less than ordinary people. But using physiological measures like blood pressure, heart rate, etc., it was not-that-long-ago discovered that they are probably actually hypersensitive, it’s just that their behaviours are atypical. For one person with autism who I dated for a long time, getting the needle definitely hurt, it’s just that the doctor or nurse touching their skin was so many orders of magnitude worse than the needle that the needle was hardly worth mentioning.
It’s very risky to assume you know what is going on inside someone from their behaviour (despite the fact that this is the basis for the entire discipline of diagnosing mental illnesses).
Yup.
Yup yup yup yup yup.
while(1) { print "Yup"; }
And my point is, that I’m not calling anyone here anything, nor labelling them.
Being “logical” doesn’t preclude having emotions, and I never said that.
You are earning lots of Yups today.
Root canal? Meh. Novacaine? Four Xanax plz.
Addressing three thousand people? Easy. Fucking
Peasy. No, really.
Conversation? Cold sweat, unless we are talking nerd.
I don’t have an answer for you.
But most people when confronted with a wall of text will react negatively, or just not read it. Its an imposition, on whomever it is you’re trying to communicate, you’re requiring a lot of work and time and effort from your audience just to understand you. People may not like that.
I do it too BTW. I’m not always succinct. I’m a terrible story teller. Which is a shame, cuz I love telling stories. But I don’t know where to start. How far back do I need to go to get across why this thing was humorous, do I start when I was kid and saw something similar, do I explain how the light coming through the window reminded me of something my Mom said once that reminded me of this thing, where does the story start if we are all the collection of all previous thought and experience. Its impossible! I still don’t have answer for you, and I still tell stories, badly. But I do try to be better all the time. And I don’t assume that my inability to tell a good story is a reflection on the listener.
The problem is in some cases, the “unusual angle” is “People who don’t think and act like me and do what I say just shouldn’t use the internet”, a position popo has argued for in the past. So when they’ve argued that some people should just not be online, I can’t really have a ton of sympathy if they feel like they’re being silenced. Honestly, popo’s angle isn’t even unusual - I’d say it’s super commonplace. The constant calls for having to “debate” people who abuse you, and how it’s your own fault if you get upset/hurt by bigotry and hate aren’t some rare, special opinion - that’s the opinion of everyone who says shitty stuff out there and has no regard for the emotional labor or emotional well-being of others.
In any case, I have no intention of hijacking this any further, but wouldn’t mind continuing in PMs.
Edit: And while ableism is a real concern which is why yo won’t see me talking about things like empathy and whatnot, “any autistic child who isn’t willing to put up with 100 neo-nazis telling them they should kill themselves will grow up stupid and unfit for society” is to me a much BIGGER form of ableism that was basically glossed over because popo said it.
I have argued explicitly against the position of forcing people off of the internet. And I have explained at length that what is helpful is that people are at least somewhat consistent in how they communicate - not that they should do it the way I do.
What I did say was that if people are going to function in public that they will need to be able to debate. Not because I want them to, but because I think that’s what being in public means. I do not mean to say that bOING bOING is not a private site, but I see it as not unlike a salon which can be used by the public.
You seem to dwell upon the notions of “blame” and “fault”, but placing them wherever does nothing to address methodology, which is where people’s interactions actually happen. And, if I may, you seem hostile to non-judgemental attitudes, because you state that they are complicit with abuse, which is not the case. For instance, when I explain that I am opposed to racism not because it is bad, but because it doesn’t work - without fail some people will suggest that I am a crypto-racist, or otherwise part of the problem. Because if I am not judging them and placing blame, I must be part of the problem, complicit with it somehow. But it might means that people are attacking an ally simply because they see the situation in different ways. Similarly, saying that what a person actually does is what is important in no way implies that I think they should be abused! I see it as a way of encouraging their agency, treating people like people rather than merely victims.
And that, I think, is good. The most valuable thing in the world is more ways to think. Because it offers something that people are often unaware that they lack - more effective ways of both understanding, and solving problems.
Not at all an accurate paraphrase of what I said. I said that debating a room full of bigots can be a valuable exercise which can build a skill they may need. Stupid and unfit are value judgements you brought yourself. And no, participating in debate - even one largely based upon bad faith - is not suggesting that anyone passively “put up with” abuse. Quite the opposite.
I am going offline now to study a bit for a Tae Kwon Do test later today. By all accounts I could complain that “no polite, civilized person should have to learn to defend themselves”. But doing the work increases my ability somewhat. And is certainly not the same things as letting myself get beaten up for an hour and a half.
This ignores broken windows. It is very, very unlikely that if a user is causing a problem it is localized to “only that person has an issue with it”. There is compelling data on this. Turns out a lot of people object to a user regularly punching someone in the face.
Anyway the larger point is for the community to take responsibility for their problematic areas rather than burying them under “oh well this is your problem not mine, just don’t look at these people being punched in the face if it bothers you so much.”
And just to reiterate I am not a moderator here, I have access to mod data for diagnostic purposes only but never, ever act on it. I may have opinions but they are just that, opinions. All mod decisions are made by official Boing Boing staff only.
Not to get too off topic, but what do you think about twitters efforts to combat ‘broken windows’, abuse, and trolling? Any opinions on what you like and dislike?
I’m not understanding the punched in the face analogy, but for the record, I referred to you in my post as being a “regular poster”, not a mod.
Be cool. Don’t post insulting, bullying, victim-blaming, racist, sexist, or homophobic remarks.
The “punched in the face” bit would be insulting and bullying, personal attacks, things like that. Even if you are on the “right” side of an issue, it’s not cool.
Balsamic, I hope.
I killfiled a particular forum poster because after a year or so of reading essentially identical abusive diatribes, I felt I just wasn’t capable of communicating with that particular person, and we’d both be better off if I didn’t waste our time trying. Perhaps it was a cop-out, but I enjoy bOINGbOING more since I did it. (Actually I’m sure it was a cop-out, but I would almost certainly have left the forum if I hadn’t the ability to filter it.)
my least favorite got banned while i was away for taunting the hosts. . like it much more here these days.
(to be clear, I do not taunt the hosts)
Did I get banned? 
What we need is a cornfield to wish people into, so get planting people!
I’m dying to know who…
This topic was automatically closed after 1276 days. New replies are no longer allowed.
