Ad-hoc museums of a failing utopia: photos of Soviet shop-windows

Actually, it was not me who used the “humane” word. It was somebody else:

I “only” happened to relate to that sentiment.

Now you can vote but look at the choices - it is more a rub-it-in than a genuine freedom of choice.

Also, the freedom to travel is not worth much if you cannot afford to travel. Which many, and increasingly more, can’t.

And publishing an opinion? The West did a master choice here - instead of hunting down the critics it allowed publishing everything and drowned them in noise.

When you get jailed for what you say, it gives you additional credibility. (And your words are sought after, moved around by samizdat and magnitizdat.) When you get ignored, you can publish until you run out of funds or time or motivation; then, problem solved.

…and you still can get in major trouble for what you say. Whether loss of a job (and possibly future jobs), or worse.

I’d say that at least in 80’s a life of a Soviet-satellite dissident was less dangerous than a life of a Latin America US-satellite’s dissident. Two words: death squads.

I dunno, check the headlines on “putin popular” google query. Quite some are articles attempting to explain his popularity.

Granted, much of it is in the more rural areas. A similar mechanism of telling people what they want to hear can be in play that also explains the popularity of Faux News in the more rural areas of the Beacon Of Freedom.

You can oppose it until you run out of breath. Then you get the Citizens United.

Ideologies, whether the communism or the free market, better work in their idealized form. In real world deployment things can and do get ugly fast.

Economists are jokes. Sadly, too many people still take them seriously.

The First Law of Economics: For every economist, there exists an equal and opposite economist.
The Second Law of Economics: They’re both wrong.

“Economics is the only field in which two people can share a Nobel Prize for saying opposing things.” Specifically, Myrdahl and Hayek shared one.

Q. What do economists and computers have in common ??
A. You need to punch information into both of them.

More here: EconJokes

The guy you refer to is most likely one of them.

When you have the choice. Also, look at the conditions in Chinese factories; the Foxconn-related affairs are easy to find.

It is. It just gets a bit more tricky and involved to do it well with subjective stuff. You cannot just slap numbers on a thing and then call it a day; then you’d be an econometrist.

They had a chance to emigrate in '68 and stayed put. Severing the interpersonal ties and going into the uncertainty was not worth the difference.

The labor camps are known as for-profit prisons.
The class being under assault are the poor.

That.

Do you include those suffering such fates in the gentle hands of US-supported (and even coup-d’-etated) dictators? The Bengal famine under Churchill?

The Russian goods were ranging from crappy to outright excellent, the latter still being surprisingly affordable. I still have some taps and dies, and a virtually indestructible set of chromium-molybdenum alloy screwdrivers.

And the crappy were still better than the Chinese crappy now.

That.

You could get in trouble for saying wrong things. But you didn’t run a day to day risk of losing job and food and place to live.


Also, a joke at the end as an illustration. (Context: ringing one’s keys was a mass display of “go away” to the ones in charge, at some major demonstrations.)

One homeless man tells another one:
“During the revolution, I was ringing my keys. From the house, from the car, from the cottage…”

You are absolutely right. I mistook you for @kiberus, which is a dumb, easily rectifiable mistake. My apologies.

Of course, much better to have your leaders selected for you than to have a say in who leads the country.

Are you actually arguing that repression and censorship are preferable to a free marketplace of ideas because jailing dissidents for their political opinions gives them street cred? I think Solzhenitsyn would slap your face.

Yes, publishing often has consequences. But the government isn’t going to send you to a labor camp in the Arctic Circle, now are they?

The number of people killed by US-backed Latin American death squads do not even come close to the number of Soviet citizens killed by their own government. Those scales will never balance.

Citizens United had nothing to do with cronyism; the decision said that people don’t lose their First Amendment protections when they’re organized as corporations.

I imagine you don’t agree with the decision, but do you realize that means you’re advocating that the government censor a movie?

Who needs evidence when you have assumptions?

The for-profit prisons don’t force people to dig copper mines in the Arctic until they die of exhaustion; the poor aren’t literally liquidated as an entire class like the kulaks were.

See above, re: the scales never balancing.

I kind of feel like you’ve never been impoverished, or been suicidally depressed. I’m not exactly proud to admit it, but yes, I have indeed had days where I would have gladly have traded a bullet for one more minute of wondering how much longer I could hang on. It’s easy to look in from the outside and say that things will get better, but when you’re hungry and worried about being evicted and have bill collectors hounding you and you feel sick but can’t go to a doctor- You honestly don’t see anything but what’s directly in front of you. It is frighteningly easy to get to a point where yes, death sounds like a better option.

Over the course of my life, I’ve been homeless and trying to decide whether to look through a dumpster or shoplift a can of ravioli; been in a Vegas high rollers lounge, drinking a bottle of scotch that cost what most people make in a month; and several points between. I helped found a 501c3 that helps homeless people reintegrate into society, and run an event that raises hundreds of pounds of food every year for a local soup kitchen and shelter.

I challenge you to go spend an afternoon in one of the hundreds of tent cities in this country- Take a good look at the desperation, the addiction, the hopelessness- And then reconsider the question.

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That’s a lovely couple of assumptions (I especially love it when people “feel” things instead of thinking or believing them), but you don’t know the first thing about me.

By continuing to struggle, you’ve proven my point: death may have seemed like a momentary relief, but by your actions, you’ve essentially said it’s better to be out of work than to be dead.

I challenge you not to make judgements about the morality and compassion of people you do not know.

Happens, no problem.

How far goes that say? Aren’t the cynical jokes about election promises reality-based, after all?

Do you know why campaign promises are like chocolate cigars?
Because they are cheap, sweet, and hollow.

Also, wasn’t it here too where that study was reported about how the people’s interests aren’t catered to while the rich ones get laws/policies tailored for themselves?

You got an illusion of choice and chose to believe it.

Free marketplace of ideas. You would be surprised how much it does cost to even get noticed, unless you cater to existing prejudices of your target group.

Nor they disappear you like they used to in Latin America.
The system where you can say whatever you want, you just aren’t listened to, works better.

Do the deaths from regions of unnecessary wars started by capitalist countries and their vassals count?
Do we have to balance the scales?

Except good luck organizing yourself as a corporation when you don’t have the money of the corporation.

Even when grouped in a corporation, people are still the individual people, and they don’t need any extra protection when in such a group. Besides, corporations aren’t people. The law may say they are, but they aren’t. The law may want to say that π=3 and it won’t make it so, as even a simple experiment with a tin can and a piece of string can show.

Make the movie, but release it AFTER the election. (And then see how the backing money for the hatchet piece disappear.)

Besides, from what i heard, it was a thinly disguised attack ad masquerading as a movie. So not really a movie.

Did you ever see an economist that’d know much about real economy?

Sorry, but economy is a pseudoscience with dismal results and well-known track record. I’ll retract my opinion when its results get better.

The US mostly got through that phase with the Indians.

What’s the obsession with such numbers? You can cook them in any way you please just by selecting the proper data sets that will prove your pet hypothesis. Don’t economists work that way too, after all?

If he didn’t, he couldn’t challenge you. Meanwhile, the number of suicides, the completed attempts of those who won’t be able to tell you their opinion about your ideas anymore, is telling another story.

I think what’s cynical is the assumption that the franchise does not matter.

Funny, Glenn Greenwald started in 2007 with nothing but a Blogger account and a lot of unpopular opinions, and now he’s arguably the most influential journalist in the world.

Excuse me? Are you saying the US is “disappearing” writers? Citation needed, please.

What I’ve argued throughout this entire thread is that the USSR was objectively worse than the United States. An easy way to determine that is through their body count. The USSR will always be higher, because they’ve simply slaughtered more people.

Starting a corporation requires some paperwork and, like, fifty bucks.

This is a common misunderstanding. Corporations aren’t people, they are made up of people, all of whom do not lose their First Amendment protections just because they’re organized in a certain way.

The New York Times is a corporation with First Amendment rights. So is the ACLU, Amnesty International, the AFL-CIO, and others.

In fact, the Sierra Club was fined $28K by the Federal Election Commission in 2004 for the heinous crime of publishing a pamphlet comparing various candidates’ environmental records. This is the very scary activity that was legalized by the decision in Citizens United.

So you are in favor of censorship. Thanks for clarifying.

By the way, the criticism you leveled against Hillary: The Movie (the film at the heart of Citizens United) could equally apply to Fahrenheit 9/11, which came out before the 2004 election.

Should the government have forced Michael Moore to wait until after the election as well?

It’s interesting, I’ve never met someone who didn’t believe in free speech. What other forms of expression should the government censor?

No wonder you like the Soviet Union! :wink:

@goodpasture I feel that this discussion is going nowhere, largely because this:

is a pointless exercise. For one, nobody is directly contradicting your point - the closest we have to a dissenting opinion is:

Also, when the discussion is framed as a narrow binary “which of the two is the best” question, there’s a risk of turning the takeaway into a fallacy: “Soviet system was worse, therefore our system is perfect”. Yes, you do admit problems in the US/West, but you feel the need to offer counterarguments whenever anybody else brings them up, which rather defeats the point.

I think that with the Soviet-style socialism out of the picture in the real world, discussions of it can afford to be more nuanced and dispassionate. We can learn lessons from it, both negative (e.g. the dangers of totalitarian rule turning to frighteningly efficient violence, failure of planned economy to prevent shortages) and positive (e.g. presence of social guarantees and safety nets to ensure reasonable minimum standards of living), as well as attempt to identify common failings of both systems. This is what I believe @shaddack, @Mindysan33 and others have been trying to do.

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A lot of hipstery shops in London are clearly going for that sort of aesthetic. I have to admit that there’s something admirable and homely in some of the displays, but an empty shop window containing a single article does look a bit sad to my eyes - to a Westerner it does say ‘shortage’ - irrespective of whether that is actually the case.

Capitalism doesn’t have borders - the problems that you correctly identify in Russia and China are necessary elements of Capitalism’s correct functioning. It’s not intellectually rigorous to apply standards to the examination of socialism that you then don’t apply to capitalism.

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You visited during the collapse - of course there were shortages then! That’s like visiting Oklahoma in 1936 and taking that as typical.

Life expectancy for Russian men fell about 10 years after the collapse and still hasn’t recovered. That to me is more telling about living standards.

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No they aren’t. China’s weird mix of capitalism and socialism (or “socialism with Chinese characteristics”) is not how free markets are supposed to function, and Russia’s sickening authoritarianism isn’t how its supposed to function either.

Which necessary elements do you mean?

It turned into a “which two is best” question based on how the argument evolved: someone asserts life under Soviet communism was “humane”; I point out that massive amounts of state-directed violence was necessary to make it that way; someone else brings up Western violence as some sort of moral equivalent; I’m saying that, though both systems cause violence, the Soviet system causes more by an order of magnitude, and therefore cannot be morally equivalent.

Gerrymandering for political and electoral purposes is quite different than moving families thousands of kilometers in order to dilute ethnic concentrations (which is how the Georgian Tsarnaevs came to be living in Kyrgyzstan), and different again from drawing republic-size boundaries in a way to intentionally fragment ethnic groups and ensure that these republics would be more concerned with fighting each other than unifying against the soviet. The number of enclaves in CIS countries is staggering, especially given how recently the borders were drawn.

It’s not a misunderstanding. Corporations are people under many aspects of the law. This is why the term “natural person” is used to describe a human being, as “person” alone is insufficient to denote this.

This is disingenuous. Under McConnell, you were not allowed to use general corporate funds for direct electoral advocacy. The specific content of the message was irrelevant.

[quote=“goodpasture, post:86, topic:52790”]
It’s interesting, I’ve never met someone who didn’t believe in free speech. What other forms of expression should the government censor?
[/quote]You’ve never met anyone who was against Citizens United, who was for campaign finance reform, who is against false advertising, who is for securities regulation, who is against public nudity, who is for Surgeon General warnings on cigarettes, or who is against nudity and profanity on “broadcast” TV? Some strange circles you run in.

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Having spent time doing porridge, and loosing jobs, I can tell you loosing my job(s) was hands down far more stressful, traumatic and problematic than prison.

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This is my problem. It seems like a blatant abrogation of the First Amendment, which, beyond anything else, was expressly meant to protect political advocacy.

I’m very pleased someone can admit that all of these things abridge freedom of speech.

I think the First Amendment should be interpreted as widely as possible; everything you listed above should, in my opinion, be protected activity.

You loosed your job? Was the cap on too tight?

Is it possible that @OtherMichael meant carpetbagging? Makes a little more sense in the context of the discussion…

Aye, fair enough, I am wound pretty tight at times. You got what I meant all the same.

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Only if you believe the First Amendment applies to corporations and that money is speech. Individuals can personally advocate as long and hard as they want, consistent with how political advocacy would have been done in the Framers’ time, without violating McConnell.

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I think it was Emma Goldman (during the struggle for women’s voting rights) who said that if the vote mattered, they wouldn’t give it to us. Also, Devo… “Use your freedom of choice…”

Well, the CIA tends to let their proxies do the real dirty work, but come on, it’s common knowledge that we totally fucked Latin American during the Cold War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Americas

Don’t forget Iran.

We have this tendency to think of the Cold War era as something of a Golden Age of peace for the US, but what we didn’t experience in terms of violence was most certainly exported in any number of ways as we pushed our agenda. Some of this was peaceful, but still aimed at shaping the world to our liking, but others included backing virtual thugs because they weren’t aligned with the Soviets or Cubans. Between the US and the Soviet union, we essentially fucked up the world good. There is a great line from a book by Mike Davis, regarding the Victorian era, where he says from the global south, the golden age of Victoria looked like a funeral pyre. I’d dare say that the global south probably felt the same about the Cold War… hence the non-aligned movement (which we and the Soviets slowly picked off, one by one, through bribery and the like).

Except when these corporations find ways to violate the first amendment rights of their employees with all sorts of regulations at the office.

@shaddack made an important point about free speech and how it actually functions. Sure, we can say what we like (unless it runs afoul of certain things which the Supremes have declared to be able to be regulated), but if no one hears us, or we’re constantly being drowned out by the corporate media, what does it matter? I mean, have you seen the state of the world and we’re all (myself included, yeah) talking about the color of a fucking dress, dude.

Keep telling yourself that, because the 1% were the ones that benefited the most from that decision.

Also, I can’t find it now, but you mentioned Glenn Greenwald as the most important journalist in the world, and I’m not sure where you get that notion from. I doubt people outside of my circle of friends and the places I spend online would know who he is. The problem we seem to have in America is a lack of consensus on ANYTHING. We all get our media and news from different bubbles. People who regularly watch Fox and those of us who get our news primarily online have completely different world views because of how the information we are getting is being vetted by the medias we read/watch/listen to. The problem is that we’re all in our bubbles created for us by corporate run media, and so there isn’t even common definitions on basic ideas and concepts.

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