Similar experiences are basically why I bought a TENS unit. During a bad migraine all my muscles contract uncontrollably and I wad up like a ball python, and sometimes the muscles won’t “unlock” afterwards - according to the osteos and chiros, this is because my back muscles aren’t symmetrically strong, and they’ve pulled my vertebrae out of alignment and said misalignment is pinching spinal nerves. Directly stimulating the locked muscle(s) with electricity tires them out (uses up their readily available ATP) until they can no longer sustain the contraction, and then my vertebrae can be manipulated or brought back into line with simple exercises. Without a stim unit, I might stagger around painfully for a week or two before my body naturally re-establishes its chemical, muscular and skeletal equilibriums, but a chiropractor who knows how to use a stim unit can have me back in action with only a little soreness after a day.
[quote=“Medievalist, post:12, topic:100203”]
I don’t mean to be rude, but honestly this astounds me. You thought electrical stimulation of muscle tissue was “voodoo”? [/quote]
I can see it. Clinical evidence is certainly mixed when compared against placebo.
I might not have called it “voodoo,” but then, I’ve called chiropractors “witch doctors” in the past, so I can’t really judge. Although TENS, as far as I can see, at least has a viable mechanism by which it might work, which is more than what I can say for many of chiropractic’s claims.
One could say the same thing about leeching, and skepticism of leeching generally isn’t seen as untoward.
Fair enough!
When I was in US public school in the 60s and 70s, the science teachers taught us about Volta and Galvani, and we dissected frogs (prior eras vivisected them, but thankfully that was phased out the year before I took the class) and made their legs jump with a battery. They also showed us colorful pictures of human innards including the nervous system(s) and spinal column. I guess I just thought everybody born in the USA after 1945 got that level of education, which was narrow-minded of me. 
In my own experience TENS and chiro are both very effective for very specific problems. Neither one is a substitute for antibiotics, a healthy diet, sane exercise regimen, &etc.*, nor are they fake medicine**; they are cost-effective evidence based treatments.
* Despite claims by crackpot practitioners and religions.
** Despite claims by corporate pill-pushers and pseudo-scientists.
Eh. Still finding myself on the “fake medicine” side of things, as far as chiropractic is concerned.
Even if spinal manipulation therapy is itself effective beyond the point of placebo (which, from what I’ve heard, only seems to be the case for lower back pain), the science behind why it’s supposed to work (“A subluxated vertebra … is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases … The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column.” - D.D. Palmer, founder of chiropractic) is bunk. And, in my opinion, that makes them all the way wrong.
If someone wants to start up an actual evidence-based spinal manipulation therapy clinic for lower back pain, then I’m all for it. But if they’re using the word “chiropractor,” then they’re subscribing to the pseudoscience made up (sorry, “received from a deceased medical physician”) by its founder.
The Chiro we use does exactly that - you can usually find them associated with “sports medicine” centres, and focus on muscle work (usually along with some level of joint mobilization) that differs strongly from the “usual” manipulation stuff other chiros tend to do.
I’ve actually had long conversations with him on more than one occasion about how he sometimes feels “trapped” by his professional designation, as there’s really two types of chiros out there in his mind, “evidence-based” and “traditional”, with the former using exercises expressly designed to see immediate changes that can be measured week-to-week by working on the referenced area, and the latter, as he put it, “having an unnerving fascination with the spine”. This happens with his acupuncture service as well (which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is basically TENS done with careful placement of subcutaneous electrodes), which is related to “traditional” eastern acupuncture pretty much only in that they both use needles.
Generally, I’ve found that if a chiro’s website mentions releasing or righting your “energy” or that everything can be fixed through manipulating your spine, then the chances of receiving “voodoo” are massively increased.
The problem I see is it is a mixed bag. I’ve known Chiropractors who really seem to know know WTF they are doing, and others who are one step from being someone with New Age Crystal healing etc.
For some people the alignment issues can be fixed by someone who knows what they are doing, especially if paired with proper exercises. I’ve had people really help, and others who seem to be selling placebos. Though now that I know what is wrong with me, I don’t go to them any more. Though I have a new issue that maybe would be helped by them - bleh. Who knows…
Considering that the “voodoo”/“crystal healing” stuff comes from the very source of chiropractic, I would opine that it’s the evidence-based chiros that need to disassociate themselves from the name and heritage of chiropractic by calling themselves something else.
I would never go to a chiropractor, good or bad, because I feel that that name is, at its heart, directly associated with the pseudoscience of the bad chiros. I might, on the other hand, let myself be referred to reputable “spinal manipulation therapists” who had taken steps to distance themselves from the pseudoscientific roots of chiropractic by dropping the name.
I know there are “good” Chiropractors but the entire profession feels like the “Life Coach” version of a board certified MD.
IMHO I think that’s what’s started to happen - they’ve been attaching more and more to physio/sports-medicine type places for this very reason.
That pretty much describes every chiropractor I know personally, although admittedly that’s a small number. They can also correct conditions causing neck and shoulder pain, and some kinds of hip and foot pain.
I have to disagree. If I put beer in a bottle labeled wine, people who are allergic to wine but not beer will take no harm from drinking a flagon. Labels don’t define, and they don’t even necessarily describe.
Personally, I don’t really care what a physician believes; since they are human, most of them have belief systems that are an inconsistent hodgepodge of childhood conditioning, altruistic dreams and selfserving lunacy, just like the rest of us. I’m interested in what they can accomplish, and I’ve found that a stance of skepticism, reason and experiment observation that does not prejudge based on social status of practicioner labels serves me best.
I had a little bit of an epiphany in the Christian Science museum in Boston. I realized that at any given time, what a patient really needs is the least bad treatment, and what that is may change at any moment. In Mary Baker Eddy’s time, homeopathy was almost certainly the best possible treatment you could get, since it would never outright poison you or bleed you to death, and it would keep you hydrated. That was a big improvement of risks compared to most contemporaneous treatments!
Welcome to the Boing Boing BBS 
Thank you for your service, I’m very sorry to hear it left you so injured 
Is medical Marijuana even an option for you?
Many people say this until everything else they have tried has failed, and then they decide to give it a shot.
But what about people who are allergic to beer?
Labels don’t define, and don’t necessarily describe, but they can easily deceive.
I think the skeptical, observation based approach you espouse is optimal 
But if a person actually needs medical treatment, and that need is time-sensitive, they can suffer due to seeking the services of a practitioner who does “voodoo” rather than actual medicine.
Is that really a way to live though?
Perhaps not, but I wouldn’t be surprised that people who avoid wine in favour of beer avoid your product. If someone chooses to label themselves with a name rooted in pseudoscience, then they really shouldn’t complain when people lump them in with the people who practice pseudoscience.
Labels may not define or describe, but you can’t honestly tell me that the labels that people use to describe themselves say nothing about those people. If some guy labels himself a pickup artist, I’m going to make judgements based on that label. If a different guy labels himself a feminist, I’m going to make different judgements based on that label. Similarly, if a doctor advertises their service as “chiropractic,” I’m going to assume that they believe that “diseases are 95% caused by subluxated vertebrae.” Because that’s the idea that chiropractic was founded around.
Again, my sources tell me that beyond back pain, chiropractic is no better than placebo. I don’t care if my doctor is atheist, Muslim, Mormon, or Scientologist. What I care about is whether they believe in the scientific method when it comes to treating their patient: using treatments based on their clinically-supported efficacy and clinically-defined risks, not solely based on their own anecdotal experience. Simply by calling themselves chiropractors, chiros advertise that, more likely than not, they’re going to fail to clear that bar.
That can be a dangerous attitude. I mean, obviously, if you’re focused on long-term outcomes, then yes: the one that finds the best/“least worst” outcome is the one that they should get. But “least bad” sounds like you would be aiming for what feels best now, which… Well, to use a horrible example, people have gone off chemotherapy and onto more pseudoscientific “medical” treatments because the side effects of chemotherapy are frequently worse, in the short term, than the early symptoms of cancer.
That sounds like it would be the perfect opportunity for a “reversion to the mean” bias to creep into results. After all, if you see someone on your worst day, and the next day is better, that might not have anything to do with what you did that day.
Anyway, I can’t speak for future me, having never received a reply from the man (despite repeated attempts to make contact), so I can’t say that I will never do it. But that would represent such a substantial change of mindset for me that I can’t predict anything that version of myself would do. I, as I exist now, would never use chiropractic. But you’re right. I’m not quite the same person I was at other points in my past; I can’t speak for the different people that I will become in the future.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong, just that people get desperate. Add that to the fact that people in chronic pain are no long given the meds they need as freely, and you get many people trying anything once.
Hell, I even gave acupuncture a shot. I saw a guy in Colorado where the experience left me feeling amazing. Then I found a local guy in KC, who supposedly helped bring acupuncture to the US during the Nixon years, and walked away feeling like it was quackery. Of course they each had very different approaches. One felt like they were actually doing something, and the other to apply a placebo.
Hmmmm… I see your point. To clarify my earlier statement, I wasn’t talking about what treatments feel like in the moment, but rather what the outcomes are. Personally I’ve voluntarily had some fairly horrific treatments, but I’m pretty sure I’d be dead if I hadn’t.
“only”
Have you ever had crippling back pain?
I don’t mean “only” in the sense of “back pain is a small thing.” I know it can be debilitating.
I mean “only” in the sense of “out of all of the things various chiropractors claim that they can treat, this is the only one that actually shows clinical results.”
By using that word, I did not mean to minimize the suffering of people with back pain, and I apologize for being unclear about that. I meant simply to show the magnitude of everything else that chiros claim they can treat.
I am alive today because I refuse to treat medical professionals as Oracles or Authorities, and instead treat them as regular people I hire to do a job, just people with typical human failings like I find in that idiot I see in my shaving mirror every morning.
I am willing to be treated by a Catholic doctor even though I find her church’s history repellent and its doctrine antihuman. She gives me prescriptions I need; she is a government approved gatekeeper who functions to prevent unauthorized healing, and I need passage through that gate. I don’t claim to like her, she is unpleasant and narrow-minded.
I am willing to be treated by an antivaxxer Scientologist chiropractor even though I find his church’s history laughable and their current economic practices socially damaging and subversive. He can fix my back, neck and foot pain quickly and without medication or surgery, which no mainstream physician can do (many have tried). I respect his expertise at bone and muscle manipulation - he is incredibly skilled - but I see no need to extend that respect to encompass his ludicrous beliefs and selfish viewpoint.
Just so, I am willing to use chiropractery, TENS, herbalism, directed prayer and other heretical modes of healing if they work. I don’t care very deeply about the philosophies, rationalizations and explanations of the humans peddling them; sure, I’d prefer to spend my money only with perfect transcendant beings who enlighten and enrich everyone around them by their mere existence, but those seem to be very short on the ground, in fact I’ve yet to meet one.
