Well my mom was on the minority board of Mass Mutual in the 80s for being 1/4 Mohawk. My fathers mother’s last name was Neil, the race of the white n-word.
What’s your point?
This American Life did an interesting story on why different tribes might be motivated toward different thresholds for membership that drives home the arbitrariness of race pretty nicely:
Radiolab also has an interesting story about a family that identified as “negro”…until one didn’t… (it starts going about 9 minutes in):
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Only, life is not a zero sum game. Are white people being treated better than they should be, or are black people being treated worse than they should be?
When I visit the US without being shot by the police, or when I cross the street here in Austria without other people thinking of me as an illiterate illegal immigrant, I am not getting anything that I am not entitled to. I should be aware that other people are not getting what they’re entitled to, because of the color of their skin. Do I need to feel guilty before I can start to (try to) do things about unfairness?
It is true that a feeling of guilt is a good sign, but I don’t think it’s absence is a bad sign. There is plenty of space between feeling “white guilt” and lacking a decent moral compass, pinning culpability on the victims, etc. (I’m not sure if you meant to acknowledge this space, or if you meant to imply that people who don’t feel guilt are suspect).
Side note: the subject of “guilt” for historical misdeeds has been a subject of a lot of discussion in Austria, in the context of National Socialism, WW II and the holocaust. The main difference being that in that discussion, the question of “guilt” is usually quite separate from present-day privileges (there are only very few ways in which we can be said to be profiting now from having started and lost a world war).
Exactly.
Although there is a flip side to this issue, especially with regard to Cherokee: by the early 1800s they were already so admixed with Europeans (and to a lesser extent Africans) that even if someone’s 20th century grandparent was “Cherokee”, born and raised in a documented tribe, they were likely to have 0.0% Native SNPs to pass down.
Its interesting that many a talking heads song was written without any specific meaning, just writing phrases on paper and picking them out of a hat. (Or something like that, I don’t know the specifics). Yet we are still able to find meaning when we wish to do so.
We can look at the stars and see bears and gods and a man on the moon and we can see Jesus on toast.
We can always infer meaning if we believe there to be some meaning for us to discern.
But see, the things he has, the better opportunities, are his because they are denied to others.
At the end of the day, this is a zero sum game, there’s no way to give minorities more without having the majority give up some of what they have.
Yes, respect is free, jobs are limited.
I believe this is the major way racism is internalized, we decide that we deserve the things we have, therefore, people who lack, must also deserve what they have. And even if we agree they deserve more, there’s none left for them anyway so what are you going to do?
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Personally, I just don’t believe that. I don’t believe that the existence of the middle class is the cause of extreme poverty in our society - it’s the massive concentration of wealth higher up in the chain which causes these inequalities. It is astonishing to me that, during a time when the gap between the super-rich and everybody else increases by the minute, middle-class people have become so mesmerized by the idea that they’re privileged, but like Warren Buffett sez: “There’s class warfare all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that making war, and we’re winning.”
I think you may be confusing class warfare with racial bigotry. Which might suit Warren Buffet just fine.
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I may very well be, but how exactly? What we were discussing was whether the rights and opportunities enjoyed by the white middle class are causally linked to their denial among black people (and poor folks generally); as you put it, are his “because they are denied to others.” I say that no, the rights of the middle class don’t necessitate the extreme poverty of those below it, and to believe such a thing is beneficial to the mega-wealthy, who are happy to see the middle-class feeling guilty about the modest trappings of their own existences, rather than becoming enraged by the concentration of wealth at the top, and the entire system which oppresses poor people, and leaves their own class just as expendable in the event of major financial hiccups in the marketplace. In Dylan’s song, the poor white is made to feel superior (and contemptuous) of black people, in order that he doesn’t question his own place in the wider socio-economic order. Racial bigotry is fomented as a form of class warfare, setting the lower classes at war with one-another so they fail to realize their common enemy higher up in the power structure. My point regarding the well-intentioned middle-class of today is essentially the same: by increasingly obsessing about their own perceived “privilege” (rather than that of the genuinely privileged mega-wealthy), they are failing to see that they are only pawns in a larger socio-economic game.
Wait, that’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about privileges extended to all white people, when you said that these privileges were only afforded to the middle class, I merely pointed out that you were making out a class divide to stand in for a racial one.
If you’re talking about the privileges afforded to the middle class then its not white privilege anymore, its something else. But here’s the thing, a middle class black man does not get the same respect a middle class white man does, or are you saying he does? If he did, there would be no racism.
If you want to go down that road, then you need to compare poor black people to poor white people. The stereotypical image of a poor white man is of someone down on his luck while that of a poor black man is someone who won’t rise above his condition.
(Note: Please note I wrote stereotypical, not typical, I’m clearly referencing the bigoted shortcuts some might use to not think about people as people)
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As I said, it’s nothing to do with physical wealth - that’s only the metaphor - so their individual finances are completely irrelevant. Whether you live in a trailer or a mansion the only thing you need to benefit from white privilege is the ability to appear white.
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You know, @awjt – something I forgot until now – Chris Rock has expressed regret for some of his past stand up, in much the same way Dave Chappelle has. The reason is because so many white people assume they understand their material, using their experiences and lived lives, when in reality they get it all wrong. SO many people appropriated their stand up in a way that compeltely missed the point.
Chris Rock’s stand-up, particularly in the past, was not meant for you, not really. And most of it definitely wasn’t about your life. And yet here you are, using his past stand-up to support your argument that he was CRITICIZING black culture, when that’s not really what he was doing. Are you sure you understand his stand-up as much as you think you do? Why is that?
@PrestonSturges Same goes to you. His stand-up was from a totally different perspective than from what you actually live and experience; why do you presume to be able to speak as if you fully understand it? Why do you think you understand his motivations?
It seems to me that this point of view completely misses the point and nuance of stand-up, as if you don’t really have as much of an appreciate or understanding for stand-up in general.
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Well, to unpack what you are arguing, I have to say you are making an awful lot of assumptions. About me. About what I wrote. About comedians. About societies vs individuals, etc.
You don’t know if I’m black, brown, white or green and I don’t know if you are. But I hardly think it even matters. It seems like you’d hold it against me as having an ignorant point of view no matter how much melanin I possess.
The second thing that stands out is this assumption that I think Chris Rock or any comedian has a role of critic. They might like to think of themselves as a poignant court jester, but we need to remember that they are entertainers who may occasionally say stuff that resonates. But words to live by? Ok. Go ahead. I won’t stop you.
The other thing that stands out is your implication that I am advocating that Chris Rock should do something. I never said that. I said he took it in a unidirectional direction: “is” vs. “should.” I filled in the blank. Not everything has to be fair and balanced. But I did fill in the blank. Here’s why I filled in the blank.
There are individuals and there are societies. Chris Rock used the example of individuals Ike and Tina as a metaphor for all of black & white culture. While funny, and poignant, and food for thought, it is still missing a huge element of reality. That individuals can be equated, really, with societies. Metaphorically, or any other way. I think it’s false because societies are way more complex than a dysfunctional couple. While the metaphor is thought provoking, it isn’t a good way to portray the whole story.
Chris Rock is free to say what EVER he wants. It’s fuckin funny and awesome. I love him. Using his stuff as words to live by and judge other people by, though, is not useful. It would be oversimplified. It’s not “all you need to know about racism.” No, there’s a hell of a lot more to know about racism. It’s the flip side of white people taking his former act as fact, as you said, and then somehow turning that against people of color. Faking as if they truly know black people, because they watched a comedian. Well, it’s the same thing to say that about what he just said about white people. It’s a COMEDIAN talking. He’s a cool guy, but he’s a comedian. His job is to oversimplify and join things in unconventional and not necessarily true ways.
So, I hope the tone remains as it has been these last two posts, because then people don’t feel attacked. When people are attacked and judged to be some way by a stranger, then nothing good happens. To approach the good, we have to suspend judgment for a few minutes and invite further conversation without unnecessary accusation.
Sorry about any spelling errors. I’m on my damn phone.
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George Hamilton isn’t black, but he’s trying…
You COMPLETELY missed my point and in fact didn’t even really address it. Surprise.
I was responding pretty clearly to something you said very clearly, which is still in black and white, in this thread. Just fyi. For your information. Y’know, I can read!
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We’re talking about Alexander Hamilton! I’m so confused… >_<
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What is the question that you need answered so badly?
Sigh. I didn’t ask a question, you just talked around my points. Also, you seem to think you are All Knowing when it comes to Chris Rock and his stand-up. You weren’t his intended audience, and you’re missing the nuance. As I have already said.
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YES. Thank you 
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