Americans aren’t entitled to affordable/accessible insulin because Trump is an asshole. Got it.
Yes, somewhere around 1 year and 50 weeks or so too long?
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You’re operating on the false assumption of scarcity. Supply and capacity of insulin is not limited in a meaningful way. Properly stored insulin lasts 3-5 months. A single bioreactor can make enough insulin for 1000 people for 1 month in one day. There are permanent bioreactors (picture a huge stainless-steel tank with tubes and everything) but there are also single-use bioreactors that are essentially big sterile bags that can produce almost as much as the permanent bioreactors but can be brought online in less than a week in an existing, validated facility.
Actual demand is unknown until it happens. Production is based on forecasts, which use historical data to predict future use, then updated as real use becomes historical data.
High-value, high-capital expense products like pharmaceuticals are re-forecast on a nearly real-time basis. They also run with a buffer that both minimizes loss due to expiration and maintains a buffer to accommodate surges in demand.
If every single American diabetic showed up tomorrow and bought a 3-month supply of insulin in their nearest major Canadian city, you’d have a point. That’s not what’s happening, nor will it happen. Even if thousands of Americans started regularly buying insulin in Canada, there would be no shortfalls, because the pharmaceutical industry can produce and distribute it faster than diabetics can consume it.
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You haven’t been reading our new comrade @jonyee, then. His posts pretty clearly land on the side of, “keep yer filthy hands off our Canadian insulin!” and using false narratives to justify it.
Actually my argument is “why are Americans going to Canada as “medical refugees” considered heroes. While refugees going to the United States are considered illegal, stripped of their children and lost in the system.
Please enlighten me into what the difference here is.
First, that’s definitely not the only point you’ve tried (and failed) to make in this thread, so add that assertion itself to the list (how meta!). It’s also not a point I’m bothering to address, because it’s silly on the face of it.
The difference is explained in this link:
## How to recognize an Steller sea lion
The shiny-pelted Steller is called a “sea lion” because of the light mane of coarse hair found on the neck and chest of the male, resembling a lion mane. The sea lion is sometimes mistaken for the seal; however, it’s easy to tell the difference. Unlike the seal, the steller sea lion’s outer ear flaps close over its ears to protect them from water. Stellers also have a bony structure which allows them to walk on all flippers while supporting their entire weight; making them much better climbers than seals.
As the world’s largest sea lion, the adult Steller can reach lengths of two to three metres. Females weigh between 200 to 300 kilograms, while males have been found to reach up to 800 kilograms. One massive steller weighed-in at almost one tonne.
The average steller sea lion pup weighs about 20 kilograms at birth. This precocious little creature has a shiny, blackish-brown pelt. As it matures into adulthood, the pelt changes to a pale yellowish-tan colour that darkens on the underside and near the flippers.
The steller sea lion is a pinniped – literally meaning feather-footed. These amazing fins have a similar bony structure as the legs of land animals, allowing the Steller to support its entire weight while walking on them. In the water, the steller sea lion swims by using a breaststroke and can reach a top speed of about 27 kilometres an hour.
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I think and hope that everyone agrees that anyone who needs insulin should get it.
While I completely understand (and encourage) people to do what they need to survive, I can also imagine that two or three unscheduled busloads of Americans to a smaller border town, could conceivably impact the short-term supply of the local pharmacies.
There’s no question that there’s more where that came from. It’s also not the biggest problem in the world. But it’s not a great situation, or one that would benefit anybody concerned if it was long term one.
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Agreed. At least it hasn’t surfaced as a problem yet, and the groups concerned about it are monitoring to make sure it doesn’t become one (from the article):
Dr. Seema Nagpal, vice-president of science and policy with Diabetes Canada, said her organization is paying attention to the cross-border traffic and potential insulin shortfalls.
“We try to keep our ear to the ground and hear as early as we can if that is becoming a problem, but we just haven’t heard that yet.”
I do object to the characterization of the situation as some kind of emergency. I also object to the fantastical attitude that somehow the people who are making the trip to Canada to be able to afford their insulin should have magically forced the US government or Big Pharma to fix the problem. That’s victim blaming of a particularly lazy kind. American diabetes groups regularly protest in DC and at major pharma companies to fight for better access and lower prices for insulin.
I know you’re not doing that, but there are others in this thread who are.
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Since no one here is expressing those opinions, I think you’ll have a hard time finding someone to debate.
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BoingBoing: a hotbed of immigrant-bashing since 1995.
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Umm, maybe another thing to keep in perspective, but I don’t think any of these people are immigrating. They’re day-tripping.
But I wonder if we’ll ever get to the day where the Canadian government accepts an asylum claim for healthcare-based human rights violations?
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The market solution is:
American healthcare is uncompetetive and should fail.
According to republicans.
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The immigrant-bashing I was referencing was BoingBoing’s nonexistent bashing of people immigrating to or seeking asylum in the US.
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1 - The Americans who are empathetic to the border-crossing-diabetics are Not the Americans who hate immigrants. The Americans crossing the Canadian border to buy insulin are not the Americans who hate immigrants. They are two distinct populations in America : Anti-Immigrant people, and people with empathy.
2 - No Canadians are going without insulin because some Americans crossed the border and purchased insulin. There is no insulin shortage. America could buy ALL their insulin from Canada and Canada would not run out of insulin - the insulin in America would be put in a truck and driven to Canada and sold there .
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Because pharmacists are not the people who make decisions about how much of a drug is available. That’s the same false narrative you’ve pushed since we began this discussion. As I’ve said already, by and large pharmacists work for corporate owned businesses. The corporations handle the supply chain management and the manufacturer determines the ultimate availability of any given drug in any given area.
You paint a picture of a limited nonrenewable drug supply (which is false) whose distribution is determined by individual pharmacists (which is false) being in short supply because stocks of the drug are not readily available from other locations (which is false)
Settle down. I didn’t make the arguments you’re yelling at me about.
Come on. I said the exact opposite. Insulin is easily renewable. There is always more where the last batch came from.
I do casually believe that if demand happens to peak in a town, they can’t always magically teleport existing stock the same day, a belief I share with anybody who’s ever had to deal with business inventories, corporate or retail.
Nobody is worried that the world will get amnesia and forget how to make insulin. The warnings are about access and possible temporary short-term supply chain problems, not that there will suddenly be a deficiency of production.
You seem to be arguing that shortages are simply impossible, because they’re run by “corporate owned businesses”. Great. You are welcome to your opinion. But the idea that shortages simply could not logically ever happen is the one that seems like a wishful narrative to me. Maybe “corporate owned businesses” have never let you down in the past, and you expect that to carry over into the future. I won’t try to dissuade you, and I hope everyone lives up to your elevated opinion of them.
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We’ve had computer controlled inventory management for a few decades now. Anyone who doesn’t order more before stock runs low is doing it wrong.
Except the actual retail outlets and drug manufacturers are’t saying there is a problem. The guy working the counter who doesn’t control inventory or purchasing is saying there may be a problem. My argument is and remains that the pharmacist does not have the information necessary to make such a claim.
Again, that’s not my argument. My argument is to the source of the “warning”. Uninformed F.U.D. should not be spread. That said, if you see any evidence of a shortage actually happening, then you’d have something to point to in support of your position.
Got it. As long as people always pre-order the stock to cover unexpected spikes in demand, there’s no chance of any shortages.
That’s solid business advice. Completely settled then.
Look, if you don’t think pharmacists have anything to worry about, you are completely welcome to your opinion. I still somehow think the US and Canadian Pharmacist Associations probably have more industry knowledge than you’re giving them credit for. It’s not a random pharmacist complaining on a blog. You don’t have to believe them, but it’s not wild to think they may not be completely ignorant of their own industry. You do you.
You seem to be under two major misapprensions
- There is an insulin shortage in Canada.There isn’t in aggregate and the groups running up to Canada don’t generally have a statistically large number of people in them and usually go to border cities with larger pharmacy chains which avoids the small town large caravan concern someone mentioned. This has been happening for years and as the article notes there is no evidence of shortages from it.
- The people you are arguing with are somehow supportive of the US refugee policy. Looking through the thread at the regular posters I’m seeing generally people who have been particularly vocal against those policies.
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Thanks for that explanation.
I’m now certain US healthcare is insane.
