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Have this been in original agreement? Then this is one of the rules that people have agreed on. Once more: you do not like the rules, do not sign under them.
The thing that makes me sad about modern MMOs is that they’re all Cow Clicker, with fancier graphics. It’s all grinding, of one kind or another, and actual role-playing is an exotic concept most players have never encountered.
Indeed…and there are so many great RPGs out there now. A friend told me about the “Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff” podcast…really opened my eyes to what’s out there and got me back to sitting with actual people and playing a role! And the fact that my current game is with real humans means in a shared physical space keeps it from being a 35-hour a week addiction.
Doesn’t matter - according to the rules you sign under, they can change the rules you signed under to be sunsetting other than the rules you signed under without notice.
Do you think this is a good and just thing? Should all agreements be this way? If so, are they truly agreements?
No, I do not think it is good and just thing. That is why I write, that you shall not sign under such rules. There is rule that says that rules can change, just walk away. Tell me one thing: if you believe that the rule is not good or against you, why would you sign under it? In this case we are talking about commercial game, no one is holding gun to your head.
If people would be rejecting such agreements, they would have to change - but as I have written previously, people break the system by accepting the rules though they do not really want them. Such behavior makes these rules commonly acceptable.
This is where you argument breaks down. You are required to accept the rules on sign-in with Blizzard’s games. You are unable to log in otherwise. There is no ability to play the game without being presented with the TOS and choosing to accept or reject those words.
IIRC you also must scroll to the bottom in order to progress, placing the words on the screen to where you’d have to make a concerted effort in order to not read them.
[quote=“FoolishOwl, post:44, topic:57698, full:true”]
It’s all grinding, of one kind or another, and actual role-playing is an exotic concept most players have never encountered.
[/quote]I only played WoW for a while way back in 2005. I never got a character above level 45 (?) because I “wasted” so much time exploring, crafting etc. I enjoyed the game for a while, but I would have preferred something with more immersion and more roleplaying, and by that I don’t mean talking in a bad imitation of 17th century language.
One in which your character has an imagined personal identity, and you choose courses of action and interact with other player characters based on that imagined personal identity, to create a narrative about the characters. That doesn’t really work in an MMO with a fixed narrative, like the last several I’ve encountered.
I’d guess it’s only a large minority, at best.
Also, playing pen and paper games doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve participated in role-playing – in the early days of tabletop RPGs, “hack-and-slash” gaming was very common. My impression is that, given the ready availability of computer games based on that model, that more of those participating in tabletop games do so out of interest in role-playing, but it’s certainly not all, judging from conversations I’ve had.
Part of what I find sad about this is that, years ago, I turned to MMORPGs because it was actually easier to find people interested in role-playing, with compatible styles, online than offline, since there would be tens of thousands online at once on a server with an open world and no forced narratives.
Of course I have! But you do know, that you are trying to compare totally voluntary acceptance of rules of non obligatory product against something that could hamper your ability to function in society? Lack of ability to play game will not influence negatively your ability to function, lack of account will.
Banks, here where I live, send you notice that rules will change and you are automatically accepting rules, usually after 30 days from receiving the note, or you can disagree and take your money back. I have done so recently and moved money from one bank to another, because I did not like changes in bank fees.
If something is voluntary for you, just do not agree on anything and then moan around that someone want’s to enforce rules you have signed for. You must be conscious about what you are signing for and be able to face consequences.
The only way to fight such rules back is to not sign under them, not after. And as Phrenological mentioned at least twice: you agree with changes to terms every time you log in. You may always abandon the game… I know you have paid 15$ a month, but this way you have also agreed to the rules and enforcement of the rules on you and other subscribers.
I do wonder if there’s not a mix of false nostalgia and other factors here. WoW did include “RP” servers, and when anything scales to the degree that WoW achieved, you have to deal with the masses, other games may have had a self-selection of participants due to the smaller turnout.
Oh, RP online was always frustrating, and the role-players were always a minority of players. But the devs would at least try to support RP, in various ways.
What’s changed, is that they don’t seem to be making that effort any more. A few game devs I’ve talked to about it said that it just isn’t worth the expense of trying to satisfy the demands of a vocal minority that will never be satisfied anyway.
I have to admit that makes some sense, though I remain suspicious of the argument. It resembles arguments in other industries, how things can only be structured as they are because that’s what the customers demand and that’s what all the consumer studies and metrics show. And what the metrics show is that people want Cow Clicker. It’s worth asking how the question is posed, before accepting the answer.
Well, if you can’t immediately define what it is that you’re looking for or define it as anything other than a social phenomena, how do you expect game devs to quantify your particular ideal of RP?
I sympathize even if I don’t know if I even understand exactly what you’re looking for, or how it would be achieved.
“It resembles arguments in other industries, how things can only be structured as they are because that’s what the customers demand and that’s what all the consumer studies and metrics show.”
The other problem here is scale, WoW succeeded, but all other MMOs lack the budget and producer/distributor support to even handle the “simple cow-clicker” format.
I don’t believe you. At least, I don’t believe you read everything you sign for. Especially EULAs. Do you know how I know? Because you’re presently doing something other than reading a EULA. It’s been well established that the number of software agreements that we enter into, and their changes, amount to a body of reading material that it would take a literal month out of your year. This is why I thought it was hilarious when during the healthcare debates, people asked if I had read the bill just one or two days after it was being talked about, all the while assuring me they had already read it. People who couldn’t string together a sentence without spelling mistakes were telling me they had lapped me in reading a bill longer than War and Peace. You cannot read everything you “sign” for and function in society. That’s reality. Choosing between not reading a game EULA and my bank policy? It’s a toss-up, right? I mean, based on what you’re saying and the physical limits of the time-space continuum.
Actually unilateral modification of contract terms are viewed with some skepticism by courts, and are interpreted in the interests of preserving a conscionable contract. You make it sound like you can sign for anything, and if you get screwed it’s too bad, but in fact there’s a long history of contract law that says that just because you put a term in the contract, it doesn’t mean it’s enforceable. You want to buy a used car? Buy it in Massachusetts, they have laws on the books that limit the ability of a person to contract an as-is sale. You can pretty much return a car if it stops working. This kind of contract limitation isn’t exclusive to American jurisprudence, either. Contracts are not supposed to be “gotcha” moments, and the idea that they should be allowed to be, undermines their purpose. On a philosophical level, contracts are simply about enforcing consensual agreements such that people cannot act deceptively without consequence. It’s never as simple as “a promise is a promise” and is always about who’s making what kinds of promises, and why. If your kid clicks through the EULA, s/he can’t legally enter into an agreement because of who s/he is. If you agree to mow my lawn, and I bulldoze it before you can, I can’t sue you for fault because of the kind of promise that was. Simply signing a piece of paper doesn’t answer a lot of these kinds of questions. Which is why we have law as a profession, and why Internet lawyers are all insufferable.
Your use of the Game Client is subject to the World of Warcraft End User License Agreement (the “EULA“). Your use of the Service is subject to this Terms of Use and the Battle.net Terms of Use Agreement (“BNET TOU“), incorporated herein by this reference.
You do not have to believe me. This literal month is statistical and it does take some assumptions which may not be true for me; statistically I have 2.6 legs per my flat - my girlfriend has 2, I have 2, my dog has 4, there are 3 of us. You probably know what skimming is? 4 years ago I have spend 45minutes in my bank to read 4 pages of agreement for my additional Euro account (a am really slow reader.) Banks send me updates of terms and unified terms (separate papers), I have to read update because I already know what was in terms before.
90% of my EULAs are GPLv2,v3, BSD, Apache 2.0 or MIT. At least from the beginning of this year I have not installed new software that would require me to read license. This year I have been forced to read licenses for few online services and VirtualBox to confirm that my company may use it.
Most of EULAs require you to be adult to sign in. Blizzards EULA, which you have forced me to skim, does that in the first paragraph, the same paragraph also makes parent/guardian responsible for giving minors access to their accounts. Paragraph 9, which is about terminations, states that your account may be terminated if you fail to comply with the rules. So, if you are below the age that is adult age in your country and you sign up, then your are breaking the rules of the first paragraph - namely the product is not for you - and the agreement may be terminated (no game for you.) Basically if you are not in the age to make the agreement, the Blizzard may take responsibility to terminate the agreement because he just may not deal with you. Even worse than ban, isn’t it?
This is similar to minor trying to buy alcohol: minor is not allowed to purchase but it is sellers responsibility to enforce that rule - that is also why businesses often does not allow employees under age of 21 to sell alcohol.
Privacy policy also states that people under 18 are not allowed to subscribe to paid services without permission from parent/guardian (check yourself, Note to Parents, http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/about/privacy.html)
