Blockers will win the ad-blocking arms race

The problem with that is scale. At the large end of things what you’re looking at is the PBS/NPR model. Optional donations, sometimes with additional material ear marked for donors only. And often with supplemental ads. Sort of a weaker version of the subscription and ad model with paywall where access is cut off or limited if you don’t pay in. The problem with that model though is in practice it tends to fail to bring in enough money. First the PBS example, as their public funding has been eviscerated over the past 3 decades, donations have routinely failed to make up the gap. As a result PBS produces less important TV, is less of a factor in culture. Employs and trains fewer people. As another example you’ve got the Max Fun pod casting network, founder Jesse Thorn came out of PBS and Max Fun follows that donation based model. And its worked rather well to support a number of pod casts. BUT I know a guy who wrote for one of those pod casts. The revenue model doesn’t allow individual pod casts or Max Fun to pay too many staffers a living wage. After years of working for them as a side job or main job. He had to give up and take a job in advertising.

Basically that model works really well for individual or very small groups of creators/workers. And has real problems scaling beyond that. But generally speaking economies are not build on collections of independent workers self funding.

She is not entitled to a “job” as a painter. She is however entitled to compensation if some one takes possession of one of her paintings. And whatever she does as a day job she is entitled to compensation for that.

What media companies are facing is the fact that they have people who work for them. These people are doing work. But increasingly they don’t have the money to compensate them for that. So you see pay rates going down, working hours going up. And everyone still struggling to make it work. Fewer people working and making less money in what are still very profitable sectors of the economy. That’s bad. When I was at college there was a healthy job market in TV, Film, and video work. By the time I got out that market had effectively collapsed. Particularly in NY. And while noone has to fund my dream of being a mid level, in house, cog in the production wheel with a reasonable middle class salary (heaven forfend, kids these days). Those jobs increasingly just don’t exist in numbers sufficient for even the people who were already doing it. In their place there are now a very limited competitive number of very poorly paid, freelance positions in Reality TV. And poorly conceived unstable, and only slightly less badly paid jobs in web media.

So its easy to say “yeah you aren’t entitled to that, go do something else”. What happens where there isn’t much else. For my part I ended up a barman in the morning. These sorts of dynamics, in media, and in other fields are how you get those curious statistics about those under 40 making far less than older generations at their age. Working far longer hours. Working those hours without additional compensation. Being more likely to work in low paid service jobs. Getting fewer benefits through their employer etc.

Stop thinking about individuals or even single companies and what you think they deserve or not. Start thinking about the overall impact to the economy and the work force as a whole. This issue isn’t merely tied to websites. There’s a direct one to one connection between web advertising and every aspect of the media landscape.

I find it very hard to believe that you would simple shrug if everything currently participating the online advertising field simply evaporated. The Times, The Washington post. NBC and most major TV operations. Google (nowhere to place ads nowhere to get ad dollars from). And where and what happens to our economy as that begins to happen.

People tend to make that argument over and over when it comes to media. “Who says its my problem if you can’t make a living?” Pick a different field and they hand wring with the best of us. Don’t leave the working class behind etc. So what about those guys I knew running union print shops in Jersey, running off books and papers. When print publishing started to collapse under pressure from these exact online ad problems. All those guys went out of business. Though curiously printing for direct mail ads kept them afloat for a while. Those guys can just find a different business model? They had millions in printing equipment they couldn’t off load. Specialized knowledge in one field. And while well off weren’t the sort of rich that lets you just pick up and start something equivalent in another industry. These things ripple out. Few things economically exist in isolation. Businesses shuttering, and ecconomic sectors collapsing tend to have wide reaching effects. Its not “so what, so and so isn’t making money off whatever anymore”, it rapidly become “holy shit a lot of people are out of work”.

You might notice that many places are trying. And people are bitching and hand wringing about it. Hell for the vast majority of companies involved this is the new business model.

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Even though I don’t click on them?

You don’t have a right to serve me malware or monetize my eyeballs.

If providers don’t like the deal, they shouldn’t double down on the advertising. Consumers hate, absolutely hate, online advertising. No business model will succeed that your customers hate. Full stop.

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And if she offers her painting on the internet and tries to recoup costs by forcing malware networks along with them that degrade the online experience? Well, don’t be surprised, since I control my browser, that I block it.

She’s still free to sell paintings. Boing Boing can tell tshirts and other items. People have even offered to subscribe to the site and been turned down. I subscribe to tested.com for example.

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Yes it does, Grrrrrrrrrr.

Silly me, wanting to control what runs on my computer.

It’s especially galling because 99% of what’s on the web that I’m interested in could be best communicated in plain text and doesn’t require interaction.

This is a topic that makes me depressed about how humanity developed an amazing tool on par with the wheel, and yet somehow found a way to fuck it up. Because apparently life would be empty if a website communicated information instead of presenting a brand image. There are still websites out there with flash splash pages.

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Or usually (if the maker doesn’t want to run into trouble with the gov, usually in the context of yt videos) they just stuff the “paid content” stuff inside the description that nobody ever reads.

Generally I assume any video from, say, a gaming channel that explicitly mentions 1: the developer’s name or 2: a non-game product in the title is an ad. Publishers/developers often want their names in the video titles.

I assigned a hot key that toggles it on and off (Mac with Safari).

Isn’t that what you’re doing? You are turning off scripting after all.

Silly you expecting web site creators to design their sites with your edge case in mind, removing features standard for over a decade because you want a web browser that doesn’t support scripting of pages. In my experience, most of the js that runs on a site is doing useful things, like giving notifications of new posts, as it does here.

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Three words: “Guaranteed Basic Income”.

Propping up obsolete, failed, and/or inappropriate (polluting, for example) industries is submoronic; it’s an irredeemable, inexcusable sinkhole of money and time that benefits no one at all in the end, except for a few plutocrats sitting at the top. Instead, if it fails, it FAILS, but you guarantee at least basic income/shelter/food/health care to all citizens. Problem solved!

Don’t try to play the Capitalism game, if you can’t take it when the odds are stacked against you. I don’t really see why you’re so fond of it, in the 1st place =p .

I mean, seriously, did you really think bringing up the printing industry would help? No, it WASN’T about “online ads”, it was about “far lower distribution costs”, such as the equipment investment you yourself mention. That happens every time an industry becomes obsolete; you need to make sure that people don’t starve or die of exposure — and we can do far better than that, while still saving society quite a bit of gelt — when it happens. And even though I read plenty of printed media (and pay for the privilege, mind you) that doesn’t obligate me to read the ads.

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Most online advertisers pay exactly diddly-squat, unless the viewer “clicks through” on the ad. This can change, however, for deals directly with the advertiser, as opposed to an agency; with a popular enough site, sometimes advertisers will pay per view under a direct agreement, instead, but that’s still pretty rare.

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There’s plenty of sketchy sites that do that, sites that don’t give a shit, and entire categories of site that are built explicitly to exploit that (torrent sites, porn). But in large part when you run into that on respectable sites it is unintentional and the site isn’t necessarily receiving any benefit from it (above their usual ad rate). When I am reading say Slate, and a malware based ad pops up. It is not Slate entering the malware economy and making millions by exploiting their readers. It is a QC error on their or their ad networks part. I don’t think its cool to permanently black list sites in that situation. The point of my original statement was that its frustrating that even the sites you white list will eventually throw bullshit at you. Not running an ad blocker is becoming untenable because you can’t practice simple avoidance anymore. And even white listing site you’d like to support you wouldn’t be avoiding the annoyance.

How many web sites do you visit daily? Weekly? Monthly? Now give each one a subscription fee monthly. See what it does to you bank account. Subscriptions and donation models are great. Which is why we see so many web publications adding them to the ad model. To mitigate its short comings. But on the user end it would rapidly become untenable as a wholesale replacement for advertising. Just look at how cord cutting has gone. From saving money by using the internet and streaming services over cable. Now you are expected to pay an individual subscription fee for each network. Collecting it all up costs far more than cable. Then go look at the frustration people have had over pay walls at major newspapers. And how many times a day you personally are annoyed by a link in an article or post that’s pay walled (happens to me a few times a day). Open publication with donation/voluntary subscription tends to bring in far less money. Making combination with ads more important.

Also how many times do I have to say adblocking is an entirely valid thing that will eventual push the ad industry to fix this shit. But that I personally would like to avoid using one for the time being?

That said it can work. And does work for some. And I’m willing to bet there will be more of it in the future (without the pay walls). That’s part of the whole people working it out taking time thing I was on about.

Good make that happen tomorrow.

Its called an example. It helps us illustrate complex subjects in simpler terms so everyone can understand each other. In this case that businesses do not exist in isolation. And that the fruity creative who doesn’t deserve to have their dreams funded exists in an industry with some unexpected direct connection to other businesses full of super manly work.

Where did I suggest that. I’m attempting to explain that the ad based model is one that works, but is currently struggling (in some really interesting ways, with some unexpected damage caused) due to destabilization and other problems online. All I’m arguing for is a little understanding and support for the people who’s creative work you enjoy. Who are in large part not responsible for the shitty state of things in regards to online advertising. Not the ad networks, not the scammers, not the malware mills. The guys who end up with this shit on their pages. They’re often negatively impacted by all this shit too.

Here’s my quick & easy way to deal with WIRED (not that I go there often since they’ve done this):

Once the page loads, CTRL A, CTRL C. If the blocker note comes up, I open Notepad and CTRL V and keep reading there. No images, but usually that’s fine.

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I think a better solution would be to move streaming media to a paid model (maybe 50% public funding, 50% viewer fees for entertainment websites), and move all advertising to where it would be most effective - like online retail sites such as Amazon or Walmart or what have you. If you’re in the mood to buy, it’s the best place for it.
I have always felt fine about paying for programming if the burden is shared among other users, and I’m not being regionally blocked. An a la carte model would be best, with increasing number of channel tiers.
Advertising needs to be contained - and in forms like pop-ups, it’s just evil and advertisers know it. How would an ad exec like it if I came over to their house while they were browsing the internet and periodically shoved flash cards in their face?

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And YOUR desires are gonna happen soon…? Nope!

I notice you don’t acknowledge your own example bit you right on the ass =) .

BTW, you are insisting the ad-based model works, for a medium where we are discussing the failure of the ad-based model. You seem a bit confused.

As for “understanding and support”, sorry, no, not interested; find a way to monetize yourself that doesn’t infest my computer, force your distributors to do so, whatever you choose, but I am NOT going to do the heavy lifting for you. Don’t like it? Publish a book with your work(s), I buy LOTS of 'em. F*cks not given, if you break my rules and I owe you exactly zero apology; you don’t have to reinstall my OS (again) when it’s borked by malvertising.

Note: As I stated above, I do allow advertising from select sites but there is a zero-tolerance policy in effect: ONE intentionally-malformed ad = complete ban, if I ever come back to that site at all. And yes, jiggling images/animations/sound = “malformed” to me (remember, MY rules).

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I don’t know how many sites I would subscribe to. I can tell you that even when I see ads, I haven’t clicked on an online ad in over five years. No existing site gets any ad revenue from me whatsoever so that model isn’t helping the sites.

I don’t even know why we’re having this discussion. Ad blockers work and more and more people use them. The current ad model is dying. People should recognize the reality and find a replacement, not try to justify a model that users find hostile and hate.

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Wow, it sounds like arguing with those guys who used to “wash” your windshield when you stopped for a light. You’d tell them you didn’t want your windows washed, but they’d “wash” them anyway, then they’d expect you to pay.

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Not justifying it’s just trying to explicate exactly why and in which ways it’s fucked. And that the sites displaying the ads are often getting fucked too.

Ultimately I think I’m headed your way. When I used to run an ad blocker back in the day. It was a relatively simple matter of white listing sites with non sketchy ads. But the number of sites I can reasonably expect to not regularly have an issue is approaching zero. So it’s not as simple as that. So when I do get sick enough of it it’s probably full nuclear ad blocking. Which I don’t quite like. I remember distinctly the fits and starts when the ad based model hit the web. Seeing sites crater, people I know lose work. I’ve also worked in enough industries with some connection to ad models to see how difficult it often is to keep everyone employed and paid, especially with the best of intentions. So Im totally sympathetic to the “please don’t ad block” argument.

But like I said its a valid response. More people blocking will, eventually put pressure on advertisers and and networks to handle their shit. And cause more publishers to be active about making them. In the short term it seems to be having it’s biggest impact on publishers, who often have minimal control and space in their budgets to compensate for that pressure. The initial response out of the ad business hasn’t been good though. The rapid ratcheting up and spreading of bad ads is apparently in a lot of ways a direct response to the spread of an trackers. Spam companies and obnoxious advertisers upping their game in attempt to side step them. and it’s just making the blockers more neccisary.

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Something like 20 years ago, I read an estimate of how much is spent (in the US) on advertising every year. It included the production of ads, insertion costs, etc. By taking that number and dividing by the population, I arrived at a figure of around $3000 that they were spending, per person. (I’ve forgotten the exact number, but it was definitely south of $5K.)

Of course, those costs are passed through to the consumer. And that’s an enormous drag on the economy – it means I could be saving $3K from my yearly budget for food, clothing, cat food, etc. (Housing is, relatively speaking, a very small slice of the advertising pie.)

By my second though was “Hey, I’d be willing to spend $3K/year to avoid every ad, everywhere.” Let some fraction of the ad execs and copywriters and directors and set designers retire on what we opt-outers are willing to pay; nobody would get bent out of shape or lose their way of life. Just let my eyeballs, and ears, be free of that pablum.

Strangely, I’ve never seen an offer to buy that kind of service. :slight_smile: (Though covering up the billboards only as I drove by would be a bit of a technical challenge.)

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Nah. You just use polarized images that flip polarization at short intervals. That way, normal cheap polarized sunglasses wouldn’t block them reliably, but active optics (thus sold at a premium, a portion of would go to participating companies equally) could easily do so. It’s actually an interesting idea.

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You seem to believe that google redistributes a large part of that money to the content providers. In truth, the money they redistribute is a small fraction of the total, especially for small independent creators.

Yes, it would. Some marketing is indeed useful, but the US system has grown out of hand into a complete parasitic system. It is interesting to compare the USA with other countries which chose different systems, for example countries where TV is not entirely financed by advertising. TV has been with us for over half a century, so we have had enough time to see how things play out, while the Internet is comparatively young.

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