There aren’t two sides here though fwiw though. Like the idea that there are “two sides” to this conversation is my cue to leave.
I’m not interested in the scapegoating or witch-hunting that is about to happen here.
And I’ll leave you to it.
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Good point. We’re all here trying to sort out what will save this forum we love.
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There is a clique of regular long time posters here that really can twist a poster’s comment around into to something that poster never intended.
When that happens what I see happen next, especially from new posters, is they then try to repeatedly explain themselves that that’s not what they meant, but once one of the long time posters latches on no amount of explaining will appease them until the poster gets frustrated and then breaks a rule, gets flagged, and then removed.
Happened to me early on.
A while ago there was the most benign comment of mine in a discussion about some mundane topic that one poster was twisting around. I finally gave up, deleted some posts and decided it’s just not worth it.
I backed way off of this forum and there are several posters I will not even acknowledge or participate in topics they’re in because it’s just not worth walking on eggshells in an attempt to not get them started.
Clearly it’s not just me that feels this way.
This forum can be fun but it can be very frustrating at times to have a simple conversation.
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And when it’s a regular who is the problem? I’m not talking about the obvious, here. I’m talking about subtle but consistent racism, misogyny, homophobia, disdain for those with mental illness, and those kinds of negative behaviors. The kind of thing where one occurrance might not garner enough flags to be hidden or moderated. That’s what people are talking about when they say “microaggressions” and they are frequent. The people who are affected by those microaggressions are inherently more sensitive to them and those who are lucky enough not to be the targets of those microaggressions (like @docosc and I) start out blind to them. But if we listen to people, we can learn.
When I suggested reviewing the General Moderation thread from the top, what I’m suggesting is looking at all the regular users who stayed under the radar with such microaggressions, sometimes for years, before their behavior became toxic enough to be given a timeout or banned. That wasn’t the work of one flag. That was often years of flagging and pushing back and documentation of misbehavior. Orenwolf doesn’t even mention when he ejects obvious trolls from the BBS in the General Moderation thread. That’s all “regulars.”
That’s not how communication works, especially text. The burden is upon the writer to make themselves clear. Thinking of some recent examples of “miscommunications,” the “bullying” (I guess) involved asking for clarification. Now that clarification might have been inept, might have been even worse than the initial post, or it might have felt like misdirection. That’s how discussion works. As @chenille wrote above, if that’s bullying, then that word no longer carries much meaning.
Every post has an edit button. If someone has written something that is misunderstood, they have every opportunity to rewrite it or add context. I do, fairly often. It’s not painful.
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DukeTrout, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. But you (and others) have taken what was being brought up in the OP of this topic and twisted this into a different discussion of your choosing.
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You’re absolutely right. I should not have said sides. Every conversation is much more complex than “sides.”
I also do not want to see any scapegoating or witch-hunting here.
I just don’t like seeing fighting here, especially between members who know each other and have known each other for years. That’s my main concern, and that’s why I shouldn’t have framed this as a matter of sides.
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Thus making the point of the OP.
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I will repeat myself from above. If this happens to you, especially if it happens frequently, that’s on you. It’s a text forum. We don’t get tone or facial expression, only what’s written. So, if something is posted that is, or is interpreted as, stupid or microaggression, or insulting, or etc, it is on the poster to rephrase, clarify or otherwise make it clear what was meant. Getting called out for some ambiguous post that was interpreted badly is not bullying, it’s lack of clarity. Disregarding someone’s lived experiences because yours are different is not ok, ever. And i see it way too often directed at our most vulnerable members. Calling that out is a duty. It is not bullying.
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I disagree. He is trying to make people understand that sometimes people say shitty things and when they get called out on it they don’t stop to consider themselves and just hate to messenger/s. Sometimes people build and fester resentment against the people they think are the problem often when they don’t understand these people very well.
Again I’ll be the brave/stupid one here and put an example out there.
It has gotten to a point where I am AFRAID to give certain people a like because I feel I am perceived as their lackey and treated worse for it.
When I have tried to tell people something maybe they really should not have said that way I am made to feel like I just must accept whatever bullshit they say no matter what.
I muted these people now and that’s how I cope personally but occasionally I still get pulled into the fray. And I think ultimately a lot of this is also some projection because sometimes people really do get called out and they should, ideally, step back and listen… but instead they just stay mad and resentful.
Can we really honestly say we have grown as humans and never realized something like that after all?
I had an issue like that with my mother, not at all related to here, but just trying to get her not to tell me what a genius trump is because he’s a really talented con man. She thinks it’s not nice to ignore how smart he is… I’m like “please stop conflating sociopathy with genius.” She didn’t listen. She just thinks I need to respect the other side more. To her I was just twisting her words and not listening to her important trump is a genius speech. From her perspective her argument was sound, but I just wasn’t listening right because i wasn’t supposed to take issue with her assertion.
If I can’t get through to my own damned mother I will probably not be getting through to most internet folks who don’t already want to listen to me for some reason. So I try a few times and then mute.
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Well, at least now we have an example of what they mean. Because this recurring problem of bullying with no examples, by a clique with no members, was really hard to evaluate until it turned out it was that some regulars post animated gifs when someone says something that reads as problematic. 
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I think this is the quote of the decade to be honest, and that even those of us who are trying really hard to foster equality have gigantic blind spots on privilege. Assume good faith should be the norm, but we ALSO need to assume good faith that when marginalized people are telling us something is bad that they’re speaking from a level of experience about the privilege we might not realize we have. Believe people when they tell you that you’re hurting them.
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I have seen many a poster try to do this, but their attempts at clarifications often fall on deaf ears.
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Uncomfortable assessment, from my perspective:
Women’s, LGBTQ+ people and POC voices often get glibly dismissed or striaght up steamrolled here amid the ceaseless cacophony of ‘White male experts pontificating on everything’, including our own lived experiences.
All I can say is that if anyone here thinks that they are being treated unfairly, I’d be happy to trade shoes and let ya walk a few miles in mine.
I am one of only two ‘out’ WOC in this community, and it often feels like my presence here is only valued (tolerated?) because it gives BB the appearance of diversity and inclusion.
That’s a pretty fucked up vibe - but I feel it constantly lately, and I am not the only one.
We are supposed to assume good faith, but the fact of the matter is that there are more bad faith actors online than ever before… and that’s on top on the long term members here who already seem to see every conversation as a competition to be ‘won.’
(That’s not even counting the plethora of energy leeches that just want to suck all the oxygen out the room.)
“There’s a clique, there’s a gang!”
Oh, puh-lease.
This isn’t high school; nor is it QANON - there is no cabal of people behind the scenes conspiring against you.
If your words are constantly being ‘taken out of context’ by numerous people in the community, then maybe take some time to reflect on how you phrase your comments.
Consider that maybe, just MAYBE the common denominator is yourself.
Disagreement isn’t ‘bullying’ and neither is posting animated gifs… and if you think it is, your unearned privilege is showing.
Lastly as @chenille already stated, enforcing perfunctory civility only enables sealions and JAQers.
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That’s not what I’m talking about at all. Sarcasm, snark, sneering at others isn’t “impolite”. It’s a form of bullying and abuse that slides under the radar and is unfortunately championed by many in our society. It is harmful to families, friends, coworkers, and discussion forums. I’m well aware that many people don’t see or understand this.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t push back about microaggressions etc. I’m saying we need to look in the mirror.
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And of course that wasn’t my point either.
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I’d like to take a minute to acknowledge that I HAVE seen people backtrack and move on though.
Sometimes an honest acknowledgement or even deferring can go a long way.
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That’s disingenuous. I’m talking about eyerolls and side-eyes. Not “animated gifs”.
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Yes, that is often the case as well. If people did backtrack and move on more often, we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with.
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Clearly, we have very different ideas of what bullying and microaggressions are. You just defined disagreeing. No one has an obligation to agree.
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This is inaccurate. We are lucky to have a large contingent of diverse voices including a several who self-identify as being members of vulnerable communities, and they happen to feel safe pointing out their viewpoints instead of suppressing them as they do in many other forums.. That means that yes, it is likely that you will have your comments challenged in ways you may not have them challenged elsewhere, but it’s not a “clique” or a coordinated group, it’s mutants who are tired of being quiet elsewhere. And we are bloody lucky to have them here.
That being said as a moderator I’m not endorsing uncivil behaviour. But you have to balance the reality of having your opinions or arguments challenged, sometimes forcefully with personal attacks. They are not the same thing and while the former is within the guidelines, the latter certainly is not, and we do regularly act on any mutants who cross that line.
Where this gets complicated is when new posters arrive that don’t understand our culture and who have never visited a heavily moderated forum before. But I addressed that in my earlier comment.
And I get that emotionally charged rebuttals and different interpretations of one’s comments can be uncomfortable, but you have to consider that in the wider context of what online discourse looks like today and realize that many of the issues being discussed arent theoretical to some mutants! But there is a bright line between “I think your argument is terrible and here’s why” and “I think you are terrible” - the latter is never appropriate in any situation on the BBS, and often it’s new (or casual) users who step over those lines.
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