Election Reform Ideas: What, How and Why

[quote=“daneel, post:36, topic:89872, full:true”]
If you want them staggered, why not have a random draw or something?[/quote]
State parties use primaries for far more than the presidential election, so imposing dates from above is problematic.

Incidentally, primary dates used to be more spread out, Super Tuesday is a bit of a look at what a joint primary might look like.

Again, an argument can be made that by having small states first it gives the poorer candidates a chance to compete on a more equal footing. Also, Iowa’s caucus is a thoughtful process, and the state’s small size allows the final tally at the caucus level to be a form of STV; one could do very much worse.

I have no issue with this, but remember that ceteris paribus advertising helps less-known candidates more than well-known ones.

[quote=“Brainspore, post:40, topic:89872”]
Then the solution is “find a way to allow candidates to campaign in every state,”[/quote]
Sure. As soon as someone figures out how that would work, and what to do about the idea that at the beginning of the primary season there are often many candidates (not just 2 or 3) so all of them would be running and need financing, we can revisit the idea of a one-date primary. Of course, if you find a way to let all those candidates run in all the states, you also have a situation like the one we had in the Republican primary this year, where the candidates all had sources of funds and wouldn’t drop out, so the “not insane” vote got split between all but Trump.

Do you think that the slate of Democratic candidates was very different at the beginning of the primary season than it was at the end? How about the slate of Republican candidates? How did California’s primary being late meaningfully affect the primary outcomes?

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A politically engaged Iowan might get to meet half a dozen hopefuls at a State Fair, each clamoring to persuade them why a vote for their candidacy will help their home state. But by the time Californian voters get to weigh in most of those candidates have dropped out of the race, often with the result that Californians have no choices left at all.

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I didn’t read all the thread but I wanted to express my ideas at least for discussion.

  1. Treat voting like jury duty where there are penalties for not voting, probably done trough taxation to avoid criminal fine or charges.
    1b. Open up the voting window treating all votes like early voting. Then after every state can call for a candidate make it a huge federal holiday where the announcement is made and the results are announced then (still before the electoral college allowing for challenges).
  2. Overhaul of the census to get it as accurate as possible. Update the census every 2 or 5 years even if the districting is done on the decades to capture large population migrations.
  3. Use a math-driven approach to districting and take it out of the hands of political parties. Use a computer to churn out the map based on the census and then verify down to the local level. Use federal funding as leverage to prevent states from opting out.

Those are the three main things that bug me in the US - low voter turnout, the census, and districts being hand drawn.

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I think the direct democratic process probably looks good from California and similar places. And it all goes with the assumption that everyone has the same priorities and best interests.
But If the needs and wants of people in less populous states are different from those in the crowded ones, then a system where the votes of people in Wyoming are irrelevant becomes oppressive. It goes to the whole taxation without representation thing.
It has always been explained to me that direct democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

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We still need a better balance of power than there is now.

I’m sure there is a reasonable compromise between “the most populous states are the only votes that matter” and “the most populous states barely matter at all.”

And there are other mechanisms in place as well. Even if the Presidency was decided by popular vote, an individual voter in Wyoming would still have 67 times as much influence in the Senate as a voter in California.

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Yeah but at the same time WI, MI, and PA have declining population when adjusted for birth rate meaning they have too much say in the voting.

Pure democracy at least is accurate every single election instead of every 2 or so.

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Does anyone really live there? Is the population of Wyoming above the margin of error in US population estimates?

They’ll be fondly remembered.

(But srsly we need a better balance than the one we have now)

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[quote=“Brainspore, post:44, topic:89872, full:true”]

A politically engaged Iowan might get to meet half a dozen hopefuls at a State Fair, each clamoring to persuade them why a vote for their candidacy will help their home state. But by the time Californian voters get to weigh in most of those candidates have dropped out of the race, often with the result that Californians have no choices left at all.[/quote]

Let me rephrase my question. How DID California’s primary being late meaningfully affect the primary outcomes?

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We’ll never know, because they didn’t get a chance to participate in most of the selection process. That’s the point.

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But why is it important to electorally buffer citizens of small states and not members of minority races? (or genders or sexualities or religions or…?) Especially when the latter have much larger effects on someone’s life than just what state they reside in? If we want to be serious about protecting minorities from majorities, then whether you live in a big state or a small one is the absolute dumbest way to do it. And so yes, arguments that small states should be overrepresented that can’t adequately explain why actually discriminated classes shouldn’t, are pure bullshit.

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Live in Spokane, your vote is worth the square-root of fuck all. 30 miles down the road in Coeur D’Alene, suddenly, the power of your Presidential vote doubles, and your Senate vote is worth 5 times as much.

I guess the lesson to learn is “don’t live in Spokane”.

(I wonder what moving from Fort Collins, CO to Cheyenne, WY does)

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On the contrary, California participated in every aspect of the selection process well before we entered primary season, and with far more influence than Iowa or new Hampshire. Clinton was actively campaigning in California in mid-2015. By the time of the first primary there were 3 Democratic candidates.

In Summer 2015 Clinton/Sanders polling in California was 55%/5%. This dropped to 44%/17% in September, then 45%/28% in October as Sanders established a presence there and elsewhere. By the time of the first primary in Iowa, that had tightened, but only to 46%/33%. Bernie’s big boost happened after the primary season began, and he was gradually taken as a serious contender. The scattered primaries helped that, and the fact that Iowa and New Hampshire are small meant he could get his message out to the populations there on a budget and use that to lever himself into the race nationally.

I’ve not voted in California (though I pay taxes there), I have voted in other big states (like Illinois and Pennsylvania), and I do not think we are the worse off for the early primaries being where they are, for the same reason that we are not the worse off for theatrical productions starting at summer stock and working their way to Broadway. If all shows had to start in New York it would be Cats all the way down.

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Californian voters had two names to choose from on that ballot, and by the time we got to weigh in a vote for Bernie was largely symbolic. As I said, oftentimes there are no alternatives left on the ballot by that time at all.

Why should some states get more candidates to choose from than others?

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There is no national party restriction on who can appear on the state primary ballots or when they need to appear. That is local.

The numbers indicate that by the time CA had their primary, Sanders was a more meaningful candidate than he was at the time of the first primary.

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But any Californians who might have preferred Tim Kaine or Jeb Bush never got a chance to vote for them at all. Thus my position that those voters were granted less participation in the selection process.

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They never had a chance to vote for Tim Kaine. They did have Ben Carson, Jim Gilmore, Trump, Cruz, and Kasich on the ballot. In February Bush was polling at 4% in California, so his presence on a February primary in California would have been meaningless. Only Cruz was anywhere near Trump at that point.

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But that goes directly to my point. Candidates were basing their campaigns and their decisions to stay in the race or drop out based on where the polls were at that point in time. Voters were basing their decisions on who to support on who was still seen as a viable candidate at that point in time.

Voters in earlier primaries had already shaped the choices Californians had to choose from. I don’t see how this is a remotely controversial statement.

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It seems to me there are two issues here. The wants of each state’s collective populace and the wants of the people within them.

The system of state’s winner-takes-all in the electoral college came to be before the Civil War (though after the American Revolution and founding) because the two dominant political parties (at the time the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists) wished to consolidate the votes of the states they each tended to get more votes in respectively. It was a kind of arms race. Jeffersonian Anti-Federalists and Adams Federalists both quickly realized that once all the EC votes in a given state that favored the other party went to it, the only chance to win a POTUS election was to pass state legislation making it the same in the states that favored their own party. This is a scenario that will be familiar to anyone who’s played strategy games.

This may even have made a good bit of sense at a time when voters identified more with their states than with their country as a whole. These days however, I would argue that people identify less with their states than with whether they live in an urban or rural area. And also, unfortunately, with the tribalism of race, though I’m highly skeptical that is anything it’s wise to encourage.

If you took a popular vote and didn’t allow reporting until all polls were closed, then every voter would have an equal say. It’s true that Wyoming as a whole would have way less influence than California or Texas as a whole, but each voter in Wyoming would have exactly as much say as each voter in California or Texas. So a key question it seems, in determining the fairness of the state’s winner-takes-all EC system, is whether people think of themselves first as Wyomingites, Californians and Texans, or first as Americans.

I would argue that if most Americans place an allegiance ahead of their country, it is not to their states of residency but to their race, economic class, sex or perhaps even whether they live in an urban or rural area.

Mind you I do think there are arguments for the states that use the winner-takes-all system in directing their electors how to vote to continue to do so. But I’m pretty skeptical as to whether someone would be disenfranchised simply because they only got the same individual vote-strength in Wyoming as they got in California. Simply put, the state having a say is not the same as the voters in a state having a say. Moreover, even in the current system, states with as few EC votes as Wyoming and Montana get ignored anyway, because the race would have to be even closer than any EC vote has ever been for them to make a difference in the outcome. As such, the franchise of Wyomingites isn’t actually protected by their individual votes having more weight than individual Californians, because the state still has far too few EC votes to influence the outcome of the election. For the winner-takes-all system to protect them, Wyoming would need many more EC votes, if not quite as many as California, to the point where the state votes could matter to the outcome. But going by the popular vote, or returning to the proportional allocation the first 13 states originally used in the EC, would protect the individual franchise of Wyomingites, though not the state as a collective entity.

That said, at least a plurality of the states would have to voluntarily move to a popular or back to proportional system in the same cycle, or all of them would have to under a much less likely Constitutional Amendment, for otherwise a few states doing it would be guaranteeing that their EC votes, and thus their individual voters’ POTUS ballots, are at least as ignored as those of states such as Wyoming and Montana already are. This hearkens back to why the winner-takes-all system emerged in the first place, because it was a way to consolidate votes within a state that made it more influential to the outcome than a state that didn’t do it.

In the interest of being clear. I do think there is sound logic in the States’ Rights doctrine, and @RatMan was quite right to push back against my facile dismissal of it. Indeed, this the good reason why the Senate is constituted as it is. I’m just not especially convinced that balance-of-power is represented in the winner-takes-all allocation to the Electoral College vote for POTUS.

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No, you’re missing the point. February is when the first primaries were. If California had been first, the result wouldn’t have been any different from what we actually saw. In a non-strange year, what should have happened (in our current system) is that the field should have developed, so that when California rolled around the choice would have been more meaningful. This actually happened on the Democratic side.

Think of the early primaries as the elimination rounds before the main event.

I understand that in a close election with an unsatisfactory outcome there is a tendency to start second-guessing the system, but all electoral systems have problems, and you can’t just imagine that when things went badly in our universe they would have gone swimmingly in the alternate universe.