Ellen Pao: “The trolls are winning.“

I don’t think it is great to be involved in major lawsuits of any kind as the CEO of any company. At minimum it is a serious distraction. At worst it is crippling.

On top of that Reddit has a million problems of its own related to racism, sexism, bigotry… hell, even the founders can’t really correct course because they were part of the original problem. Reminder, underage porn was not banned at Reddit until twenty frickin twelve! Company was founded in 2005, and community subreddits were up and running for many years before 2012.

I understand your point, but I still object to Keep Your Mouth Shut. The lawsuit wasn’t a good example of using a person’s podium for positive change, but shutting down those subreddits was.

I sincerely believe the leader of a company has an obligation to champion the ideals of that company, with regards to investors, employees, and customers . I think Pao did that.

(I just know something is gonna come out that proves me wrong, like she was a lizard this whole time >:D)

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that is one damned impressive case made for lizard equality.

I’d say there is a difference between “perpetual victim” and “professional victim.”

heh :smile:

i am simply acknowledging that while i am a Gift To Humanity, i may not know everything >:D.

A few quick thoughts and the relevant psychoanalysts who have tackled the subject:

Why are the most concerned people so poorly organized?
They aren’t concerned, and if they were they probably wouldn’t be on the computer, they’d be reading bedtime stories to some adorable bald kid with leukemia. This is what Helene Deutsch called the “as if” personality. They act “as if” they give a shit about all sorts of things, often walking all over the people who have been doing years of real work on a subject.

Why are destructive people so well organized?
Narcissism fueled by envy. Like the business (anti)development people that bury a startup, they latch onto other people’s work, ride it into the ground, then happily ride into the sunset looking for their next target. Narcissism is a group activity (See Bion or Yalom) that can be enjoyed by the low performing narcissist. Keep in mind that apparently masochistic people have deep narcissistic fantasies about how some billionaire will fall in love with them (“Fifty Shades Of Grey” and a thousand other movies) so when they see a narcissist, they are willing to whatever the narcissist asks.

Why can’t people ignore trolls?
Some sort of psychological “transference” in which the troll represents a figure from their past. Of course, many people yell “Troll!” whenever they bump into someone that simply knows stuff or speaks to them as an adult. And for many people, their conflict with a “troll” is their attempt to force the troll into what is called a “reciprocal role” that will be the perfect match to their emotions (affect), so they immediately feel the need to control this stranger. There’s all sorts of aphorisms about the hatred between people who have the most in common. I often watch a couple people going at it and think “Hey you two, get a room!” Think about “Fight Club” where the narrator meets Marla - they are leading parallel lives and as soon as they meet she can finish his sentences. Because they are obvious soulmates, he despises her. On the other hand, many people that think they are fighting “trolls” are essentially stalkers who are full of rage because someone poked them with a stick and then ignored them. You may recall the line “I’m not going to be ignored!” from “Fatal Attraction” as the point where shit gets scary. If someone said that to me today, I’d probably say “Hey, why don’t you try ignoring me?”

Why aren’t people more rational?
Murray Bowen, who created modern family counseling, had a scale of 1 to 100, with below 50 being the people who don’t make rational decisions especially under stress or conflict. The folks below 25 live in a cartoon dream world of raw emotion, although they might live [productive lives. Initially he figured half the population would fall above or below 50, but he later estimated only about 15% of the population scored above 50. However, there are a lot of people in the 35-50 range that are pseudo-rational at least until they are under pressure, and often they hide behind a smoke screen of pseudointellectual bullshit.

Why are the “good” people so often full of uncontrolled rage?
Their goodness is a “false self image” that conceals who they really are behind a wall of all the Freudian ego defenses. Anger and hatred towards others is projection of the anger and hatred they have for themselves, which was itself based on their relationship with their parents. The more self hatred they have, the more absurdly syrupy sweet is their self image while the greater their vindictive anger towards others. See Karen Horney.

Why are people always trying to make someone angry or accusing the other person of being “angry?”
I figure it like this - in real life we compete with each other to have power, status, or praise for being altruistic. But when it comes to anger, we can’t be good for being more angry, we can only be good for being less angry. Therefore the other guy has to be more angry to make us look better. The classic way to make someone angry online is to accuse someone of being angry over and over. And they may respond to this especially if they had a borderline or narcissistic parent that did this to them. Molding someone else’s emotions like this is called “projective identification.” It is also considered one of the key behaviors that a psychiatrist looks for as a psychotic trait. It’s also common enough that many people try this online and think of themselves as being quite clever when they do. When someone does it to me I’ll take time to explain that is considered a common symptom of psychotic traits.

Is there really such a thing as a Social Justice Warrior (SJW)?
Strangely enough, this character shows up over and over in the early psychoanalysis literature. On the Bowen scale, these folks would score 10 to 20.

Who are the MRAs?
Low performing narcissists. There are numerous examples of people remarkably like Santa Barbara shooter Elliot Rodger. While some high performing narcissists are capable of accomplishing quite a lot professionally while still being ruthlessly callous towards their families and peers, the low performers just won’t work to get what they want and simply feel entitled to get it without effort. Not getting that fills them with rage.

Why do people aggressively misinterpret others?
This was noted in the early days of psychoanalysis but needs more study. However, this is probably related to the recent research in the measurable changes to brain structure that are caused by a history of trauma and abuse which seem to be linked to significant cognitive impairments. Expect that sort of history and a primitive personality leaning towards the infantile or borderline organization.

What’s the problem with groups?
People in groups are mainly amoral. We always took it for granted that tribes, nationalities, and religions would be immoral. But since the 19th century plenty of people have commented on how any random group of supposedly civilized people sink into “Lord Of The Flies” savagery almost instantly. As soon as someone tries to organize anything, the primitive power struggles start. Many people online have not seen this in real life, so they think there is something special about the online environment that corrupts people. I would say it’s not entirely the anonymity, it’s also the ease of connecting with other disruptive people.

Who are the anti-vaxxers?
(This is just my personal opinion) Elliot Rodger without a gun. Low performing narcissist without the capacity for rational thought. Never cracked a book but are convinced they are smartest guy in the room, that “Don’t tell me what to do!” chip on their shoulder.

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btw, in other circumstances she wouldn’t be labeled a victim, but a Take No Prisoners, Independent, Rabble Rouser Salt Of the Earth protagonist, right? i am not entirely sure of your stance, i a simply pointing out that a person punching up at a-holes doesn’t make them a victim. even with the testimony that shows she was the target of people punching down.

“The Internet started as a bastion for free expression”

That’s a bit utopian and revisionist, isn’t it? Didn’t the Internet start as a way for the military to maintain communication in case of nuclear or other large scale tactical strikes? After that education and research using it to disseminate information? Then came the communities, commerce, porn, gaming. The structure is culturally agnostic, it didn’t care what the information or message is.

It’s a bit like saying science was created for the benefit of humanity. Well, no, but it can certainly be used for such… Or not.

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yes. Yes he did, and well called out.

It’s the “tying ones own shoelaces together” of argument.

If it’s always someone elses game, why are you the only one seeming to derive joy from it?

You can abuse it all you like. You can’t destroy it.

???

Analysts who have historically described the relevant personality types.

So people are polarized between “achievers” who are all narcissists, and other delusional masses? To insist that nobody is actually concerned with how they live and what they do sounds quite disingenuous to me. Perhaps it is simply the reductions of a jaded mind. The problem with social organization based upon reason and intellect is that there is an innately subjective, individual element involved. The best course of action depends ultimately upon what one’s goals are, for both the individual and society alike.

When you say that those who would seem to be concerned would naturally organize by reading bedtime stories to kids with leukemia assumes quite a bit. Does doing so require a lot of organization? In your “Why aren’t people more rational?” paragraph you seem to split people between delusional emotionality and false intellect, neither of which account for being compassionate towards the dying. Perhaps people doing research to cure leukemia without concern for being paid would actually help more people. But then again, you seem to assume that it is impossible for people to have actual goals.

Why should I consider what Murray Bowen thinks about rationality in populations as especially significant? (I don’t know, I haven’t read him). Family counselling tends to be very much based upon relationships and “emotional intelligence”, which might make more sense for that domain of therapy. Part of the problem seems to be that the structures of society are designed to exploit people’s tendencies towards emotional problems, probably because it is simply easier than overcoming them. Logic is not very natural, and doesn’t occur spontaneously in most unless they are taught such ways of thinking. Society is not designed to be based upon reasoning.

Apart from all that, I agree with you that narcissism is a problem. But even much deeper, is that the structures of society are influenced by the tendency of many to frame social activity in terms of status, a presumed primacy of the significance of people’s opinions of each other. But this is in many ways devoid of true content, values, or goals. Projecting one’s subjectivity upon others could be considered distinctly anti-social! Where I find social life strongest is where the social is structural, the simple facilitation of well reasoned and defined goals. As trends in reasoning and goals change, social frameworks then adapt automatically. Basically - what people think of each other doesn’t very much matter.

I would do away with the "are"s and "is"s of most of your questions as being too identity-based. People are what they do.

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People that need everyone to like them tend to be controlling, manipulative, and prone to uncontrollable anger. But most of them are convinced they are a “people person.”

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I have trouble responding rationally when:

  1. Someone bullies me. I get triggered.

  2. Someone uses language, etc. associated with bullying people. For example, victim-blaming, demands for eye contact, slurs involving -tard, calls to “mend your ways,” claims that any reasonable person would react calmly when someone aims guns at them and shouts orders at them, claims that inaccessibility means “not trying hard enough,” etc.

  3. Someone doxxes, threatens, etc.

  4. Someone claims total bull. For example, claims that lgb and/or trans people are beating and bashing het and cis people, claims that there hasn’t been any global warming in 18 years, claims that mentally ill people are particularly violent, etc. For another example, claims that trans womyn are generally privileged over don’t-call-me-cis womyn.

  5. Someone works from completely different premises and/or completely different language. For example, people who claim that “of course” “nations” “have” “a right” “to restrict immigration.” Now as far as I understand them, rights are something people have, and which institutions might enable, or for that matter, might violate. And from that standpoint, current immigration laws violate people’s rights, and are far removed from anything which could protect people’s rights. For another example, someone who starts from the premise that all human diversity is a deviation from one perfect human form.

  6. I get hit by flashing lights, backup beepers, loud noises, etc.

Of course, this isn’t a complete list.

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It’s pretty awesome how our local group of assholes has decided to describe “people who don’t like receiving constant death threats, harassment, and being forced from their homes” as “needing everyone to like you” and “controlling, manipulative, and prone to uncontrollable anger”.

But again - the actual literal nazis, the people who prey on children, telling them to kill themselves, etc, those people don’t get described as angry, or controlling.

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I think the hurr-durr trolls who keep posting insulting stuff about Michelle Obama etc are simply prescription drug abusers. They keep posting the same stuff over and over because they don’t remember posting it yesterday.

There’s this whole concept of having a “false self image” as a good kind generous spiritual person which is somehow completely separate from the shitty things they actually do. For instance, someone may lie all the time but get very indignant if anyone called them a “liar.” If someone is compartmentalizing their online behavior as not who they really are, they are probably pulling the same trick in real life.

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