Sadly it was not even the baseline, not in gaming.
I remember being impressed in the 90s by the two games I mentioned by including even token and fairly meaningless interactions (that probably took very little extra coding and dialogue writing) because I had never seen anything like it in a console or computer games.
Eh, I donât think this particular list should exist, at least not in this form.
The problem is that is it so massively incomplete as to give an almost entirely false impression. If someone wants to make such a list they will have to do it systematically, at least for some time period, rather than just âoff the top of their headâ.
I have read the page, and Iâm aware of playable gay characters (Ellie from The Last of Us would be a good example), but not so much of a gay protagonist. Unsurprisingly, most video games donât handle sexuality very well, and Big Gay Al, if I remember my South Park, is pretty much just a giant collection of gay stereotypes.
Weâre still pretty much stuck at that 90s level: playing homosexuality up for laughs or fetishizing it. I think Fallout: New Vegas does a pretty good job with its characters, but I am not gay, so I canât really say for sure.
Quake 3, Rogue Spear/Rainbow 6 and the original Ghost Recon had playable female characters.
If I had to take a guess at the purpose of the list based on whatâs included on it, Iâd suggest it exists to provide a short list of games you can reasonably go out and play right now if youâd like to play with a female protagonist.
Does it meet that goal? Probably with some margin for error. Could it be improved on? Sure. It lacks context. If youâre not familiar with the games already, you have no idea what youâre getting. For example, I havenât finished playing Transistor yet but as far as Iâve gotten in the game, Redâs voice has been taken away and weâre left with the commentary provided by the stored personality of a guy who was her friend before he died and was absorbed by the sword.
Whereas Giana Sisters is more clearly a game with a female protagonist. Gone Home, I felt, was one of the most moving games of 2013 and it was certainly one of the most controversial recent games to make the list. It doesnât have any context here, to my mind, lends some credence to my theory of what the list is for.
Does a list of âreasonable to play right nowâ games with female protagonists need to exist? I think so.
This has always kind of bugged me. In a state of ignorance this makes sense (I mean this in a knowledge sense, not an insulting one), but what happens if women just donât buy as many games of the this type? Would it still be something that we find as negative? Right now women are roughly equal in games consumption as men, but they largely consume games of the âcasualâ genre. So where is they incentive to actually develop games for them, or be inclusive?
Im not pushing a brogamer agenda here (as a 30 something with a brain, I too feel left behind by that trend), just simple economics. We like to push the feminist line here, but what if it is a pure economics line? It another plausable argument. And helps explain why the when the average gamer is my age, games are geared towards horny college freshmen with bro-complexes.
Tangentially, this list is horrible. Incomplete, and it makes a statement that isnât wholly accurate by its contents.
Iâm not sure if saying there is a genuine âfemale voice and perspectiveâ is meaningful, since it presume there is such a thing and a universal or recognizable level. Its like saying most existent AAA games have a male voice and perspective, when in reality they donât (at least not mine, or any adult maleâs I know).
I have a feeling that claiming such verges on sexism. Especially since the implication is that men like violence and aggression, but women donât.
This whole topic needs more science.
Thatâs really not remotely true unless you consider Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and pre-expansion WoW âcasual games.â Is Portal a âcasual gameâ? I havenât played it but I know my friends are generally pretty big fans of that series too.
What they donât do is hang around with gamers or announce that theyâre gamers because of the atrocious crap they have to deal with if âbroâ gamers ever find out that they game. They also donât play games that are at the core intentionally insulting or degrading to them.
Everyone loses. The developers lose out on money they might have otherwise gotten, women who game lose out on games they might have otherwise played, and insulated men and boys lose out on the possibility of experiencing video games with more nuanced stories and play mechanics.
All because a lot of people stereotype women as preferring âcasualâ games and use market forces as handwavium in support of the status quo.
I thought of Eternal Darkness as well. I guess the fact that half of the past lives you visit are male disqualifies it?
Oh bull poop. Women play everything. We just often choose not to announce it in multiplayer situations so as to avoid having stupid crap said to us. Which, by the way, happens just as often in those âcasualâ games that are supposedly the realm of teh laydeez. Iâm playing a word game on my phone right now and 7/10 of my opponents are men. Iâve had 4 or 5 dick pics sent to me via that game. Yay.
I do agree with you that the list is incomplete, however.
I would consider portal to be semi-casual, to pick nits. WoW can be casual, if thatâs how one approaches it. And also you picked three games out of god knows how many. To to be honest, lacking solid, and non-biased statistics this whole conversation is a bit moot.
If women indeed play mostly casual games, then thatâs what the market will push. If bros plays mostly AAA murder sims, then that also is what will come out. The status quo, or my hypothetical desires (more deep strategies, and deep open RPGs, please) donât play into this, and Iâm a bit annoyed with the insinuation. My point is, not defending the status quo, but presenting interesting alternative hypothesisâ because I sometimes we may be in sexism tunnel vision mode.
From the statistics I could find, you are correct. Iâm not attempting to to argue otherwise. I just ponder if the market, and capitalistic statics also play a very large role. If less women play X and more bro-gamers do, then sexism doesnât enter the equation. And the ideal fix moves towards people buying what they want to force the field to open up. As I stated, I too am a bit alienated by the current market, since Iâm not a fan of simple murder sims, or blatant misogyny or homophobia, or man meat fetish heros. They are losing most of my money as well.
Iâm not going to argue that most gamers are idiots. Iâve played some online games with an female RP persona, and got to wallow in a fraction of that filth. I also got to enjoy failed raids because one of our healers was a woman, and the second people heard her on voice come the ugly appeared and we had to kick most of the group. Iâve also had the misfortune of reading typical MMO chat⌠Which is one of the reasons that genre is mostly dead to me now.
If all things were equal in X, Iâd have no reason to disagree. However, all things are generally not equal. Whether itâs because of in-game harassment in (hypothetically otherwise equal) games or because of conscious or unconscious decisions by developers and distributers, we are still operating at a point inside the prejudices of our misogynistic culture.
We donât know if women dislike X because we largely havenât made X in a way thatâs free from other things we know they largely wonât like.
Pretending we do know based on statistics derived from the status quo doesnât tell us anything.
(Sorry for responding to this rather than the post you responded to me but this seemed more germane. You can take this as a response to that post also if you prefer.)
If women mostly play casual games, maybe thatâs because lots of AAA games are aimed at bro-gamers?
What makes Portal a casual (or semi-casual) game?
However, all things are generally not equal. Whether itâs because of in-game harassment inâŚ
You have a good point here, that I overlooked a bit in my zeal to present alternative hypotheses. This is such a tricky issue, and I suppose my main premise is just âit probably isnât all sexism, and we canât be sure how much of it isâ. There is a good chicken and egg problem there, as you highlighted.
Another tangent; Iâve noticed around 90% of the content on female gamers/gaming is pointing out there is a problem (market, or sexism, there unarguably is a problem regardless), but what is the solution? Most people who are going to be convinced are, now⌠So what do we do?
If women mostly play casual games, maybe thatâs because lots of AAA games are aimed at bro-gamers?
Which is a good point, and, if true, would vastly simplify solutions. Make games that channel a broader audience. If there is money, someone will do it. And, probably, right now we see this happening, though not in AAA bro-games (I suppose calling them frat dorm games might capture the genre a bit better), but in the HUGE indie market.
I suppose a Hollywood analogy could be made. Most movie arenât made for me (or people like me), I wonât give them money, but luckily there is always a small indie/art or alternative scene lurking out there which gets to happily dip into my pocketbook.
That to me is one of the real beauties of text adventures; if youâre careful, you can avoid the gender of the player (though it takes someone with more talent than me.)
With all the press that Depression Quest got, good and ill, thereâs loads of women writing interactive fiction that donât get a tenth of the attention. I heartily recommend people give it a look. http://ifdb.tads.org/ Itâs a genre that I wish would get a comeback; Iâm guessing with touchscreens in vogue and PC sales slipping, weâd want it to be written word with Monkey Island style navigation.
I only included BGA as a place to start looking on the page. Prior to him, most characters were not playable. Also, you might want to realize that women - as a sex - arenât handled much better by most most game designers. Protagonist women are still often hopelessly badly designed as characters. That list includes includes women who are present, not well written.
Also, I think that at this point, the games that include the option to just play as a female or male and then at some point have a relationship with a same sex character, are letting you make a sex choice without stereotyping the player. Theyâre your best option for a ânot stereotypedâ gay lead who is obviously gay.
Not all gay people are alike - there isnât one way to âbe gayâ. (Just ask these guys.) Not sure how many gay people you know, but a âtwinkâ is not âbearâ and a gay man is not a lesbian. So, if the question is âis sexuality addressed?â you almost have to do one of these three things to a game:
⢠Use stereotyping to identify the character as gay (because society is shallow or the game doesnât include sex)
⢠Show them in a relationship with a same sex partner, or make that a plot point - even that could be considered stereotyping, depending on how the relationship is used.
⢠Involve a choice for for same-sex sex/dating at some point in the game (but make the character neutral)
Remember, youâre talking about whether or not a âgayâ character exists, and then saying âbut I donât want them stereotypedâ and âI also donât want their game involvement based on a romantic relationshipâ. Guess what? Any number of games you played could have had gay protagonists if their sexuality wasnât mentioned - thatâs exactly how you make a gay protagonist without stereotyping or including a romantic relationship. You just donât talk about what theyâre doing in the bedroom.
For example, you can choose right now that Counterspy has a gay lead. Heâs not shown in any romantic relationship with a female, so itâs up you to decide if heâs straight or gay. He looks a lot like this guy:
So no one would blame you for casting Cary Grant (who was gay) as the lead, and letting him play true to life.
Well, to a certain extent, weâre doing it already. Thanks to indie gamesâ increased traction (helped in no small part by Steam, Humble Bundle, PSN, etc.), the most important thing we can do is to support the games that take these âchancesâ by buying the games, playing the games, and talking about the games that are trying to do the right thing. Which isnât to say it all has to be uncritical talk or unthinking purchases of every tame that seems to fit the bill.
If I buy an FPS because it seems to be doing the right thing, Iâm not really helping much because I hate FPSes and most of my friends do too. I might play it for like an hour, decide I still hate it, and thatâd be the end of that. Play the games that youâre likely to enjoy and keep a special eye out for the games that are doing the right thing.
Step into some areas youâre not as familiar with in gaming and see if you develop any new interests.
Some of those indie game makers are going to get big or get bought by someone big and the evidence that thereâs money in it will transform the industry.
But not if we stop talking about it. People who have been wholly alienated by the market as it is right now likely wonât realize there are things out there for them if weâre not talking about it.
ETA: âDonât stop talking about itâ is not a cue to give up on the âif youâre not someone affected by something, donât talk over people who areâ rule.
Of course. No argument to the contrary.
I am not implying there is only one way âto be gayâ. However, if you want to make your argument, then you should also be aware of the typical portrayal of gay men in media. I am against using lazy stereotypes to characterize an entire group of people. In that sense, Big Gay Al is a holdover from the 90s, which looks rather gauche compared with, say, David Fisher or even Arcade Gannon. To put it simply: all of the gay people I know are pretty much exactly like all of the straight people I knowâŚexcept gay.
I donât like stereotypes. However, I have no opinion on romantic relationships as a means of characterization beyond my view that video games do it poorly. My original observation was just that. The romances in most Western RPGs are so interchangeable that you could marry your horse, if horses had dialog boxes.
Itâs also kind of pointless to discuss which video game protagonist might be gay, if their sexuality never enters the picture. I mean, the developers could have been made their game less inclusive by specifying a sexual orientation, but theyâre not exactly making a statement by not doing that.
