I’m sorry to hear that. It sucks to not be compensated fairly compared to co-workers, simply because of one’s gender. It’s good that she enjoys the work and her co-workers, but she should get a raise for her hard work. That’s only fair.
8 Likes
We clearly don’t understand each other here.
I think the crux of the matter is that you fundamentally reject the notion that some biological differences may exist between genders while I subscribe to it. I think we will not be able to persuade each other on this. And since most of my arguments hinge on this, there is no point in me further presenting them to you.
In any case, I have said all I intended to say and I’d just be repeating myself on substance anyway.
If 50 people disagree with you, maybe it’s not an echo chamber. Maybe it’s just that you’re wrong.
If I yell angrily that the sky is puce, it’s not an “echo chamber” for everyone to laugh and tell me I’m deluded.
8 Likes
You’re conflating two different things.
- Biological differences exist.
- Biological differences make men better programmers/engineers than women.
1 is true, 2 is simply not true. Really, read The Mismeasure of Man to see how interpreting science through a cultural lens is a mistake we keep making.
8 Likes
Maybe read the memo before commenting on it next time then 
3 Likes
The only person whining… or “screaming”… or acting inappropriately here… is you.
5 Likes
Well, @Melz2 didn’t call you a moron, for one.
Where did I name call you or anyone else?
Except that we don’t know that and we can’t know that. And as others pointed out, dude landed on his feet.
I don’t understand why it’s on me to be civil to this asshole when he is essentially calling women “biologically inferior.”
Yet, my bias isn’t given systemic form in regards to gender.
The guy is getting his dick sucked by the alt-right, so I think he’s fine. Why do you think that systemic discrimination against women (that impacts the lives of all women in one way or another) is the same thing as this guy getting fired for his manifesto? Is he worth more than all women in America?
9 Likes
No one said that.
6 Likes
I guess it depends on what differences we’re talking about, and whether or not they play any role whatsoever in a person’s ability to do something. In my experience, women can clearly do anything technical a man can do – I’ve seen it at work (I’m an engineer, and worked with women engineers, lot of whom had PhDs and are brilliant) and at home (my SO). Any differences in tech ability you are attributing to biology are culturally-based instead.
7 Likes
Slightly OT but; I’m friends with a couple who frequently get mail addressed to “Dr. And Mrs. Smith.” The problem with that is:
a) his name is Smith, hers is not
b) he’s not the doctor
Cultural expectations again.
13 Likes
No, I did not. In fact, the only even slightly offensive comment I posted was the Pity Party of One meme, after a needlessly huffy and defensive response to emo pinata:
I find it interesting that someone has the audacity to start off by complaining about being ‘screamed at by people who disagree with him’, and then that person goes on to scream at people who disagree with him.
The ironic lack of self-awareness is stunning.
7 Likes
Gonna take another swing at educating you on why you’re wrong here, and ignore the “cybernetics” comment (which is probably wrong word choice).
So… The mid-80’s didn’t magically see programmers needing more of a math background. That is crap and you’re flat out wrong. The 80’s saw a lot more programmers getting hired without college degrees! This trend has wavered back and forth, and traditionally CS degrees still teach math-heavy curriculum which isn’t necessarily needed except for some Dev positions (a lot of people find professions which don’t involve heavy algo/math, and my current gig is one–most of my heavy lifting comes in understanding the architecture and developing a solution to best work with it. This trend just increases with ever-increasingly high level frameworks and languages like Ruby on Rails, and stuff that’s much more front end development).
Here’s a good read:
A good way of summarizing the article’s takeaway has already been said:
About half of my professors in college CS courses were female programmers from the 70’s. Shockingly, they knew math!
My SO and I met at work, and she’s now a professor in CompE/EE with a PhD in EE and Masters in CompE. We worked at a pretty egalitarian place, and we had female bosses there, but even so I have pointed out things to her about how people treated her differently.
I suspect you don’t work in tech…
10 Likes
Cool! My SO and I met in college; she was already pursuing a BS in computer science, and went on to get a MS.
I didn’t know that. Interesting.
5 Likes
I think you misunderstood me. I was poking fun at the assumptions that women will change their name upon marriage and also that men are doctors. It was a humorous anecdote about a real problem. Still, my friend gets pretty pissed off when she gets called “Mrs. Smith” and not “Doctor Chan”.
8 Likes
Yeah, I think I missed the context. But the sentence does describe the content of the linked article.
I actually did know that; the two most computer savvy guys I know don’t have official degrees, despite that they’ve both been working in IT for as long as I can remember.
5 Likes
Mr. Bells doesn’t either. He got hired halfway through college in the mid-90’s and never went back. 25-ish years in the industry now and not one degree.
7 Likes
My daughter’s godfather is one of the aforementioned guys; I remember being literally shocked to find out that he didn’t have a degree - that’s just how wicked smart he is.
4 Likes
Yup. My uncle got his start as a coder in the 80’s as well without a degree. I’ve had a few older coworkers like that as well.
With the sudden expansion of the market, it was kind of the wild west, and a huge shortage of people that could code. (I gather anyways)
5 Likes
I fit in that category, mostly because infrastructure work (as aside from programming) doesn’t really have workable degrees - I think in large part because the gear is ever-changing and no educational institution can afford to keep up with it, coupled with the fact that there’s literally 10+ acceptable ways to accomplish the same tasks in many cases.
There are some great certifications out there now, but speaking as a hiring manager, I care a lot more about the teams you’ve worked on, what they’ve accomplished, and your general passion for the field more than any degree. A huge part of Tech Ops is mentorship (which is, of course, a big part of why it’s historically been so difficult to break in to for women - you can’t be mentored effectively if everyone is treating you “differently” (be it “outsider” or “precious thing on a pedestal”, to consider two extremes I’ve personally seen)).
11 Likes
