How America's hatred of poor people ties back to Puritan work ethic

[the_borderer]

@LDoBe

I ask my evangelical protestant family in GA “Why shouldn’t there be a social safety net?”

“Because church charity is supposed to fill the gap voluntarily”

The early church didn’t view it as voluntary, look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 4:32-5:10 - New International Version

The Believers Share Their Possessions

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all

34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales

35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”),

37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Ananias and Sapphira

5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.

2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened

8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

[FFabian]

The puritanical roots and the prosperity gospel that rose from it is IMO the reason for a large part of the political elite we see in the USA today. The “He/she is successful/rich -> must have done something right -> he/she is right” conclusion practiced by many USians directly led to Bush, Trump (Dealmaker! Successful Genius!) et al.

[Melted_Crayons]

@Papasan

I could never pull off the Puritan thing.

Perhaps you are burdened by having ethics & morals?

[gracchus]

@Pensketch

I work hard, and a big part of the work I enjoy is finding better ways to do things; improve efficiency so we can get more done in less time. My dad had said he’d never met someone who would work so hard at not working.

I’m the same way. We’re the kind of people Bill Gates was talking about when he said “I choose a lazy person to do a hard job, because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it.”

@Pensketch

I wish I’d recorded it to refer to it later, but I had been totally caught off guard by this reaction.

I learned that lesson about corporate life fairly early on, just out of college. After about six months as an entry-level employee at the TV network, I suggested that it might be a good idea to update the newsroom orientation handbook, which was at least a decade out of date. I offered to do it, and my supervisor – totally uninterested in something that should have been her job and not really fond of me – shrugged it off and basically said “go ahead, waste your time”.

Once it was finished, I credited the people who had written the earlier edition of the manual and added my name to it and made copies for all the senior people in the newsroom to review. My supervisor’s only feedback was to insist that I also list her and one of my entry-level co-workers (whose main talent was sucking up to her) as co-authors, even though they’d done nothing to add to it.

Fortunately, a couple of the other people I’d sent it to (who were senior to her) heard about what she wanted and responded with total outrage at her attempt to steal credit (both because they liked me and because they were journalists) and basically chewed her out. About a month later they pulled me out from under her supervision and gave me a title and raise that put me on an equal level with her.

@RandomDude

I have been told countless times that I overthink things when I am just thinking at all about anything. It has gradually dawned on me that this is why American manufacturing is failing- anyone remotely intelligent that is still doing it is not encouraging critical thinking in a useful way.

In part it’s an outcome of Taylorism, which insists (sometimes in startlingly frank language in Taylor’s early writings) that a worker who does anything more than act like a cog in the machine is a worker who’s failed at his job.

[wileyk]

@Pensketch

I work hard, and a big part of the work I enjoy is finding better ways to do things; improve efficiency so we can get more done in less time. My dad had said he’d never met someone who would work so hard at not working.

I once said in a job interview that laziness was the mother of efficiency. (I wasn’t hired.) I still contend I was absolutely right.

[tuhu]

@wileyk

I once said in a job interview that laziness was the mother of efficiency. (I wasn’t hired.)

Maybe they thought you weren’t lazy enough, since you volunteered information instead of coasting?

[Avery_Thorn]

You know that standard interview question “So, what’s your biggest strength and your biggest weakness”?

I have always been tempted to answer that my greatest strength is laziness; my goal is to make my job and the jobs of my customers easier and more interesting by freeing myself and them from mundane tasks and focusing on tasks where they can really make a difference for the company.

My greatest weakness is I’m a perfectionist: I have a tendency to not accept “good enough” and go for “great” instead.

I haven’t done so yet. Perhaps next time I interview on a job I don’t absolutely need. Although perhaps I should because if the interviewers don’t understand this, I probably won’t be happy at the company…

[gabe_oakes]

The idea that charity should always be voluntary tends to sound to my ears a lot like “someone other than me should give to charity”. It rarely seems to come out of the mouths of people who actually give a lot to social programs.

[gabe_oakes]

Exactly the point I came to make. It goes both ways: poor people are poor because they are lazy/ stupid/ just plain bad people and rich people are rich because they are hard working/ smart/ just plain good people. The idea that someone could be a bad, stupid, lazy person who got their wealth through criminal/ unethical means or just plain luck simply cannot penetrate their brains, because their entire worldview depends on it not being true.

[docosc]

Why Charity Can’t Replace the Safety Net

The Conservative Myth of a Social Safety Net Built on Charity

And so on.

[wileyk]

@Avery_Thorn

“So, what’s your biggest strength and your biggest weakness”?

Laziness is my greatest strength and impatience is my weakness. Luckily, I am retired so I don’t have to endure these stupid interview questions anymore.

[PsiPhiGrrrl]

@Purplecat

you’re going to put the current American attitude towards poor people down to a lack of Catholic influence in the country’s history

Having heard some pretty horrific stories of abuse by the Catholic church against poor people in other countries, I don’t imagine they love the poor any more than Puritans. This makes me wonder if all those stories about American communities of homesteaders, farmers, and immigrants who helped each other to survive during hard times were apocryphal.

[PsiPhiGrrrl]

@Pensketch

He begrudgingly gave me about 1/3 of the raise I was asking for, and I haven’t asked for a raise since.

Wow. I thought this was gonna end with you leaving for another job where they value your work.

[PsiPhiGrrrl]

@FFabian

puritanical roots and the prosperity gospel that rose from it

Is that really the source, though? I always figured those money-oriented megachurches came from the unholy union of old tent revival meetings and traveling con artists - just on a larger scale supported by technology.

[Pensketch]

If I was ten years younger, it would have. Unfortunately over the past 30 years I’ve managed to specialize myself into a corner. And that corner doesn’t fit in very many places in my part of the world.

[PsiPhiGrrrl]

@Pensketch

over the past 30 years I’ve managed to specialize myself into a corner.

Your experience reminds me of another kind of corner. Despite having a strong work ethic, once an employer treats me badly I’m not going to put in any extra effort. When management makes that kind of treatment into a SOP, it leads to conditions like this:

Office Space the Bob's Interview Typical Day

[Pensketch]

True, and I’ll admit I’ve gone through that phase often. It’s a good thing I can’t try to skim pennies at a time on every client account. Although we don’t have that many clients.

But at some point my work ethic reasserts itself. Usually when I realize without this job my bills don’t get paid and I’ll lose my house.

It doesn’t help that I just can’t do a half-assed job without it bugging me. I’ll say, “Fuck it. I don’t care.” walk away. walk back. “Okay, I guess I care.”

[chgoliz]

Start looking for work somewhere where they’ll appreciate you. Seriously. Don’t reward that behavior.

[UncleGeo]

I got a similar answer from a relative of mine. I then asked, “If that’s so, why haven’t churches done it?” Of course that had no effect and neither did my noting that nothing is stopping churches from providing these services. I pointed out that if they actually bothered to do it, it would reduce her taxes as there would be no need for the government services she detests. Blank stare. Such is the power of right wing propaganda.

It’s interesting that Catholic Charities administers county benefits for the aged in my folks home county.