How badly do streaming services rip off musicians? A chart, updated

[Israel_B]

@clifyt

Isn’t hard…get a pen and write, anyone can do it.

First off, how did I never notice before that someone besides me here actually has relevant experience with the music industry?

howdy partner!!!

But as for “anyone an do it” well… I may have at one time been a decent producer, pretty hot on the mixing board, passable on bass and could fake my way through a few other instruments but when it comes to writing songs that stick in people’s minds? Not so much. Its really a specific talent.

If you got that talent and still get checks then mazel tov! Enjoy them in good health.

@clifyt

Honestly, I think a lot of these sorts of posts really are about trying to complain about these services and paint them in the worst light as possible without doing real research into the game.

Sadly thats a long established Boing Boing tradition when it comes to music in general and the business of music in particular.

@anon61221983

Do you think that musicians should be compensated for their labor?

I don’t think you phrased that fairly since the “labor” involved is almost always different than any other type of measured “labor” and can frequently be divided or compensated in many more ways than any other kind of “labor”.

@anon61221983

The rates are higher for signed, because the artist is most likely in debt to the label (depending on the label, of course).

Again not phrased very well. The cause and effect is not for the reason you stated, the higher royalty rate is due to better bargaining not due to the fact that labels have advanced loans to the entities they sign for publishing/promoting/etc.

Also its a bit disingenuous to phrase it as “in debt to the label”. While it may be technically correct that an entity has received a loan on advance income, the reality of the situation is certainly more complicated. I think you are aware of this as well.

@anon61221983

Do you think that they are entitled to make a living off their work?

No. No one is entitled like that and I include myself in this as I have works out there which would be affected by my calculations.

@Headache

Kevin Kelley’s 1000 true fans essay is as true today as it ever was.

I remember this theory. If it were true, I’d certainly have made more money over the years than I ever did. I’ve played on/mixed/produced/owned publishing & songwriting on enough works over the decades that at various points the 1,000 true fans would have applied yet I never managed anything like a full on living from it. Maybe the theory just has enough exceptions that I’m not taking into account.

@anon61221983

This only seems to be the case for creative fields, where people making a product (a sound recording, a film, or a book for example) are expected to work for “exposure”.

Any field which involves apprenticeship or internship is pretty much the same.

@anon61221983

Musicians deserve the same financial compensation for their work as anyone else.

Again I disagree as someone with a stake in the matter. Just because I can play bass doesn’t mean I deserve the same income as Donald Dunn or Doug WImbish or Sly Dunbar, nor does it mean I should be paid what a licensed electrician or CPA earns either.

@stinkinbadgers

The Musicians’ Union kept being dishonest about this stuff.

SHOCKING! Or not if one ever actually dealt with any aspect of musicians unions…

@anon61221983

That’s a product of a bygone era when the songwriter and the performer were not one and the same. That shifted with the rise of rock music. Now, musicians are more than likely the people performing the music (not always, but even the most banal pop star with have co-writing credits on their music, even if it’s written by a team).

Pop stars (and non stars) obtain the co-writing credits because they’ve learned to or their managers demand it. Songwriters other than the performers are still an important part of rock and many other genres.

@Uncascrooge

One thing that is seldom discussed is the fact that at around the same time that the price of recorded digital music files dropped to nothing, the price of creating digital music files dropped to nothing.

The cost of producing music digitally became relatively low at least a decade if not two before there was really a market for selling those digital files.

@anon61221983

Punks were correct that it makes far more financial sense to make the label local and closer to the artists, because then their lots of throw in together.

Or as someone who was actually part of that time/place/activity, because most of us were making music that the audience was too small and music too shitty for anything but us making our own labels.

@anon61221983

You’re much more likely to make a living and to be fairly compensated at 4AD or Alternative Tentacles as opposed to Warner Brothers or Virgin.

Dunno about making a living and Alternative Tentacles had multiple lawsuits about fair compensation. Same for a number of other big indie labels.

[anon61221983]

@Israel_B

I don’t think you phrased that fairly since the “labor” involved is almost always different than any other type of measured “labor” and can frequently be divided or compensated in many more ways than any other kind of “labor”.

It’s creative, true. But it still involves labor, it’s still work. You have to learn a certain set of skills in order to engage in it (even with lo-fi or punk, you need at least to be able to play a couple of chords and understand some basic mechanics in sound recording).

@Israel_B

The cause and effect is not for the reason you stated, the higher royalty rate is due to better bargaining

By the label and streaming service negotiations, it’s corporations contracting with corporations and since even a smaller label will have more access to leverage and bargining power, they can get more out of the streaming service.

@Israel_B

Also its a bit disingenuous to phrase it as “in debt to the label”.

How is it not in debt to a label? Sure, labels front cash to an artist, but there is a history of labels going out of their way to make sure that the artist pays for much of that out of royalties. Do you think that everything Albini said about the music industry is BS?

@Israel_B

No. No one is entitled like that

In this case I’m specifically talking about a work that is out there and sold (in stores, online, streaming, what have you). I’m unsure how doing work, having someone else make money off of it, means that the person who made it shouldn’t get paid?

@Israel_B

Just because I can play bass doesn’t mean I deserve the same income as Donald Dunn or Doug WImbish or Sly Dunbar,

That’s not what I said. If your work sells, you deserve a cut. I don’t see how that is remotely controversial?

@Israel_B

obtain the co-writing credits because they’ve learned to or their managers demand it.

Yes. Because they are more likely now to understand how the business works and how to be fairly compensated for their work.

@Israel_B

because most of us were making music that the audience was too small and music too shitty for anything but us making our own labels.

Yet some labels actually did manage to do that.

@Israel_B

Dunno about making a living and Alternative Tentacles had multiple lawsuits about fair compensation. Same for a number of other big indie labels.

The AT lawsuits (not the Frankenchrist one) were specifically about DK (which was an “account” mistake, but it took a whistle blower to bring that to attention. Do you know of other artists on AT who had the same problem? Also I know that Chris Connelly (and not just him, either) and Martin Atkins had a major falling out over royalties (and specifcially, Connelly’s music being re-released on Invisible without his consent - he was relatively pissed off over it, as I recall). The Roadrunner/Amanda Palmer and Dresden Dolls is also another example of an independent label screwing over an artist. Yes, I concede that indie labels can also be shady and underhanded in their dealings with artists (and I’d never say otherwise), and it’s largely because they are perpetuating the same sorts of business practices as the major labels. That doesn’t mean other independent labels haven’t acted fairer in dealing with their talent - more equitable share of profits once the costs are recovered, single album deals with the artist retaining or regaining rights after a fixed time, etc.

[stinkinbadgers]

@Israel_B

Or not if one ever actually dealt with any aspect of musicians unions…

The real scandal of the musicians’ union is how it let a small group of LA musicians slowly grind a thriving soundtrack instustry into dust- all by manipulating who is and isn’t counted as “professional” enough to have a say in the contracts- so they can ensure that the resulting contracts will result in fewer musicians getting enough work to count as professional the next time around… yes, it’s completely circular and has killed a once thriving middle class of musicians. This is but one concrete reason to oppose such labels, they are used to fuck people over.

[Melizmatic]

Holy blathering blatherskite, Batman!

[clifyt]

@stinkinbadgers

Me? I have tendinosis and will probably have to quit after this month’s concerts for at least a year if not permanently after years of just getting by and being in pain waiting for researchers to get the fuck on it. And I’m very sympathetic to your position about songwriters. I certainly consider myself to be much more of an artisan than an artist; I just play what other people write. I think y’all should get a good deal.

Yeah, fix yourself…you only have one of you. Music is a gift, but there are other things you can do with your life. I’ve changed careers a few times in 45 years and I’ve been amazed how quickly I can get back to the top of the game. I took about 4 years off from work to get my grad degree. Don’t wait around for finding something new…get some skills! That is my realist comment coming from the same thing. That said, there are still plenty of things you can do in the industry that doesn’t require performance. Me? I got tired of dealing with neurotic and psychopathic musicians and went into psychology and got to work with folks at a supermax with criminally insane. God…it was awesome to deal with people with minor issues for once.

@Israel_B

First off, how did I never notice before that someone besides me here actually has relevant experience with the music industry?
howdy partner!!!
But as for “anyone an do it” well… I may have at one time been a decent producer, pretty hot on the mixing board, passable on bass and could fake my way through a few other instruments but when it comes to writing songs that stick in people’s minds? Not so much. Its really a specific talent.

I can fake it at a dozen instruments enough to make a demo to send to others. Luckily, I’m also a sound designer (big 5 synth companies) so I can fake what I can’t fake. That said, fuck it…I was told all the damn time by fans, by musicians, by labels, that songwriting isn’t that hard. Fine. I believe them. I get to hear from folks like the Doctorows here where intellectual property is just rent seeking and that the only thing that is worth money is if someone does it by the goodness of their heart where they aren’t actually paying you for your talent, but because of your reputation. Which REALLY works for folks that strive to be anonymous so that it doesn’t distract from the folks that you want to sell the work and go on to get awards and cultivate the cult of personality where people assign all sorts of values from someone they see on tv acting a role.

BB is shit when it comes to actually paying someone what they are worth. It literally wants us all the be bricklayers and get paid for piecemeal work…

@Israel_B

Sadly thats a long established Boing Boing tradition when it comes to music in general and the business of music in particular.

Yup. Do I seem a little bitter about it I just wish folks would stay the fuck out of telling folks how to run their business especially when the only people complaining are either shit musicians that couldn’t get paid if they were playing coffee bars, or coked out musicians that get several million advance (i.e., loan against a single work) and the scream they aren’t getting paid because they forgot they got paid two years before the album took to get out.

Jeezus I’m bitter! I’m so much happier out of the industry…I love my friends in it and happy to see their success (good friend is charting and I get to see him this weekend!) and its funny…he seems to be making a LOT of money despite the streaming shit…but god damn…for the most part, it is a cesspool. And I miss it every day to the point I almost wish I were miserable again

[Israel_B]

@anon61221983

It’s creative, true. But it still involves labor, it’s still work.

Outside of a work for hire system, the work here is essentially a gamble because no one contracted me/someone else in advance for the work. Its a gamble and not all bets pay off.

• Someone who inherits $10K can enter a professional poker tournament but that doesn’t mean they are going to win
• Someone who goes to trade school can hang up their shingle for their trade but that doesn’t mean they will get customers

The world isn’t some socialist fantasy where everyone who does something involving a skill gets paid for it.

@anon61221983

it’s corporations contracting with corporations and since even a smaller label will have more access to leverage and bargining power, they can get more out of the streaming service.

Corporations really have nothing to do with it. It can be one person knowing what to ask for or three people who know they have something that is hot on the market and asking for more money. Or not.

@anon61221983

How is it not in debt to a label? Sure, labels front cash to an artist, but there is a history of labels going out of their way to make sure that the artist pays for much of that out of royalties. Do you think that everything Albini said about the music industry is BS?

Already pointed out that being in receipt of a loan is technically correct as debt. There are of course various ways to ask for repayment of the loan but advance claims on royalty is certainly more equitable than demanding up front security such as a lien on property or other income. Repayment out of royalties is essentially “we think your music will sell, we’ll take the risk on costs for recording/manufacturing/distribution/promotion/etc, in return we get advance claim on repayment through royalty”.

At no point did I mention Albini. However even before he wrote his essay, there were in fact plenty of books out there such as “This Business of Music” and there was the oral lore of the profession from which people could learn something about how to read a contract.

@anon61221983

In this case I’m specifically talking about a work that is out there and sold (in stores, online, streaming, what have you). I’m unsure how doing work, having someone else make money off of it, means that the person who made it shouldn’t get paid?

Pretty simple. Even with completely honest accounting by the gold standards of the profession, sometimes the money that comes in just never covers the advance or other costs.

I’ve mentioned before regarding physical media in stores that you generally have to go through distributors. Used to be they paid COD on product received, maybe net 90, subtracting for breakage which is in fact reasonable. Years back it switched to a consignment model, paying only for what actually sold, again subtracting for breakage and moving from net 90 to net 120 or longer. Some of em wanted exclusive distribution as well.

This means that if Small Label A pays to manufacture 1,000 CDs/records/casettes/what have you of Small Band #5, the gamble is that the distributor is going to sell enough of those at the wholesale pricing within the first two weeks of release to get paid the consignment price within 3 months or more to hopefully recover manufacturing costs. Two weeks because thats about the maximum window of viable sales before people just get copies off the internet.

Lets say Small Band #5 covered manufacturing/shipping costs but never really got picked up by radio or streaming/whatever. Small Label A covered its gamble on manufacturing costs but where is the money to start paying down the advance coming from? Fact is unless there is demand for re-orders on product, the rights derived there don’t start paying out.

All the above is pretty much true if Small Band #5 is also the same people as Small Label A.

Just because product got sold doesn’t mean product makes money.

@anon61221983

That’s not what I said. If your work sells, you deserve a cut. I don’t see how that is remotely controversial?

You said “Musicians deserve the same financial compensation for their work as anyone else.” and I addressed it as worded. I’m not even in the same ocean of talent as the session/performing bass players I mentioned, no way I deserve the same pay as them.

As for deserving a cut, well that too depends on a number of things such as if I’m credited as a song writer, what percentage I’m entitled to under the band contract (that is a thing you know, bands very often have an internal contract of who is what percentage of the band), and the factors about sales as per above.

@anon61221983

Because they are more likely now to understand how the business works and how to be fairly compensated for their work.

Now compared to when? Hint: the internet isn’t the point. Theres been books about this stuff for much longer than the internet (first edition of This Business of Music seems to be 1965, maybe others predate it) and oral knowledge before that as well.

@anon61221983

Yes, I concede that indie labels can also be shady and underhanded in their dealings with artists (and I’d never say otherwise), and it’s largely because they are perpetuating the same sorts of business practices as the major labels

Or just as often simply incompetent or committing fuckery in the name of keeping the boat afloat, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, hoping to pay back someday.

@anon61221983

That doesn’t mean other independent labels haven’t acted fairer in dealing with their talent - more equitable share of profits once the costs are recovered, single album deals with the artist retaining or regaining rights after a fixed time, etc.

OTOH I know personally of cases where majors gave good deals to bands/performers as well. I was even there for some ages ago. Again, some of it just comes down to knowing what to ask for (not being ignorant).

People are just people, lets not fall into the mindset of bigger groups of people are automatically worse than smaller groups of people.

[Israel_B]

@stinkinbadgers

all by manipulating who is and isn’t counted as “professional” enough to have a say in the contracts- so they can ensure that the resulting contracts will result in fewer musicians getting enough work to count as professional the next time around

Isn’t that what all unions are supposed to do? Keep new/other people from getting a slice of the pie so the existing people can eat?

@clifyt

I just wish folks would stay the fuck out of telling folks how to run their business

Hey even know it alls with no first hand experience or knowledge deserve to get paid too right?

@clifyt

Me? I got tired of dealing with neurotic and psychopathic musicians and went into psychology and got to work with folks at a supermax with criminally insane. God…it was awesome to deal with people with minor issues for once.

Never worked in a supermax but the idea that the criminally insane are easier to deal with than certain musicians does seem to have a kinda logic to it.

[clifyt]

@Israel_B

Never worked in a supermax but the idea that the criminally insane are easier to deal with than certain musicians does seem to have a kinda logic to it.

Working with musicians…jesus. A good friend use to tell me “You don’t have to be a flake to be a musician, but it seems to help”. It is the industry that every idiot thinks is their clear path to the world they deserve. No talent, just a pretty face. Sadly, it works out this way and then folks feel they deserve their success instead of just winning the lottery. Funny thing was, I worked the Disney circuit for a while…those damn pop starlets actually have talent and work their asses off. I respect them more than the ‘serious’ artists that I wrote for.

Musicians can be horrible. And yet, the ones I liked were the ones that were pure business and pissed off the flakes which gave them bad reputations because they knew what they were doing and didn’t put up with bullshit.

As for the union? I think it gets shit on just like labels do. The point of the union is that a group of people get together to protect their livelihood. You mentioned the soundtrack world…I know friends that have done 95% of the writing for soundtracks, with the artist of record pretty much flying in to yes / no pieces with no other input. Luckily, you may not get credit on the screen, but you will get your royalties. And the industry is small enough that folks know who did what. I know MOST of what I worked on was not-for-attribution…and this is how I wanted it. It allowed me to get paid a fee upfront, and the copyright assigned to me even if someone else’s name was on the liner notes. There are folks trying to change this, but most of us WANT this (the only time I was ever upset was one song I was very proud of that got a grammy nod…no win but a nod…the artist credited his nephew instead of himself so his nephew could break into the business…the not-for-attribution clause is supposed to only go to the artist of record).

So I respectfully disagree about your union conversation (that I wasn’t a part of!) and there are still ways to get in and be counted as a pro.

[Israel_B]

@clifyt

You mentioned the soundtrack world

That was @stinkinbadgers I don’t personally have experience with soundtracks and wouldn’t comment on them because of that.

My experience with musicians unions was in NYC and regarding getting shut out of jobs and the paradox of can’t get a union card without having done union work/can’t do union work without a union card.

@clifyt

And yet, the ones I liked were the ones that were pure business

Working with those types is such a joy. I had a regular session guitar player and trumpet player like that years ago and also many of the older Jamaican singers I worked with were like this.

[clifyt]

@Israel_B

My experience with musicians unions was in NYC and regarding getting shut out of jobs and the paradox of can’t get a union card without having done union work/can’t do union work without a union card.

If I remember correctly, I got mine from a side union which allowed reciprocation with approval. Get that approval, bam…you’ve now worked in a union setting and not as a ‘scab’. It is a gatekeeping technique as stated – folks banding together to try to protect their livelihood. And there are a LOT of shortcuts to this that actual union members tell those they trust.

Anyhoo…gotta be up early for a flight to Chicago in…fuck…4 hours. Luckily, I’m going up to catch up with industry friends for the first time in a few years.

[JimmyShelter]

With my very niche band (Dutch language garage rock) we’ve so far made 11,72 dollar on all the streaming services with 1 release being on there for a few years, and one for a few months.
Revenue came from 2 sold releases, 5 sold single songs and 2564 streams.

We just started with bandcamp with our latest release, this so far gave us 13,67 euro (about 15,75 dollar) with just 2 payed downloads. Basic streams are free on bandcamp, and we had 618 plays on bandcamp.

So, in conclusion (for a very limited sample) I’m really digging Bandcamp.

[fnordius]

I think a lot of unsigned artists see streaming as akin to busking: a way to drum up attention for your gigs, to put down the hat and let those who like it chip in a few coins.

[L0ki]

Obligatory:

[anon67018654]

Is it only me or isn’t this a horrible graphic? Everything in it could be expressed in a table, with better readability. The sloped lines between revenue per stream and number of users doesn’t make a good argument, I’d it makes any at all. Why is it even there? The relation between service, per stream revenue and number of needed plays to make “minimum wage” would be more interesting, but also doesn’t explain the number at all. What minimum wage? Federal? Per Hour?

Information may be beautiful, but this is chartjunk.

[Headache]

@Israel_B

I remember this theory. If it were true, I’d certainly have made more money over the years than I ever did. I’ve played on/mixed/produced/owned publishing & songwriting on enough works over the decades that at various points the 1,000 true fans would have applied yet I never managed anything like a full on living from it. Maybe the theory just has enough exceptions that I’m not taking into account.

How many true fans do you have and how do you stay connected with them? What have you done for them lately? Kelley’s essay isn’t “get 1000 fans and then the checks start rolling it”, it’s “get 1000 true fans that will buy anything you produce”. Do you have that? Are you creating things to sell?

[Israel_B]

Maybe its that I never had 1,000 fanboys/girls.

[Headache]

1,000 doesn’t sound like a big number, until you try to build a fan base.

My kids have been trying to build a YouTube channel this summer. They are doing two videos a week and are taking it very seriously. Their production quality is excellent.

Almost two months in and they just celebrated a milestone - 15 subscribers to their channel.

[McGreens]

Apologies if this has already been said but I’d be interested to see how the money artists make from streaming compares to what they make from CD/vinyl/MP3 sales.

ISTR after everyone’s taken their cut, artists get a comparatively small amount per album sale, and that’s a one-off. So the question is, how many times would I need to listen to an album for it to be better for the artist if I streamed it rather than listen to the CD?

[Grey_Devil]

My impression is that with streaming an artist has a bunch wider audience, they’d people listening to their music that would never have found their catalogue by traditional means. So there’s a potential to get more listens to songs and albums vs what they’d get from traditional album sales. If i had to guess the average artist or band really isn’t making much off of streaming but because of the wider exposure they’re likely to pull in fans that will follow them more closely and buy their music, go to shows, etc.

However like you i’d be interested to see how the traditional model compares to streaming. I’m sure that information must be online already, if i remember this later i will have to check (really need to get back to work lol).

[anon61221983]

@Israel_B

The world isn’t some socialist fantasy where everyone who does something involving a skill gets paid for it.

So it’s fine for someone else to sell the fruit of your skills and take all the profit? Should someone be paid just for playing guitar well? No, but that isn’t what I said. I suspect you know that.

@Israel_B

Corporations really have nothing to do with it.

They do. They are involved in the music industry. They write the contracts and push the government to enforce those contracts. They have set the standards for how we understand how popular music is created and distributed.

@Israel_B

Even with completely honest accounting by the gold standards of the profession, sometimes the money that comes in just never covers the advance or other costs.

Do you think that just happens or it happens because it was designed to happen that way? Yes, recouping costs is part of the equation. There are plenty of disingenuous means of hiking up those costs so that the artist sees little of the profit from their work.

@Israel_B

I’ve mentioned before regarding physical media in stores that you generally have to go through distributors.

I do understand this, thanks.

@Israel_B

I’m not even in the same ocean of talent as the session/performing bass players I mentioned

Someone can be immensely talented and not fairly compensated for their work. The question isn’t really about talent or ability, it’s about how the industry decides that people should be paid. The system isn’t inevitable.

@Israel_B

Now compared to when? Hint: the internet isn’t the point. Theres been books about this stuff for much longer than the internet (first edition of This Business of Music seems to be 1965, maybe others predate it) and oral knowledge before that as well.

And yet the incidences of artists being ripped off are deep and wide all through the history of the industry. Do you think that’s just happenstance or is it baked into the system?

@Israel_B

lets not fall into the mindset of bigger groups of people are automatically worse than smaller groups of people.

That isn’t what I said. There are plenty of assholes to go around, big and small. Yet the larger labels can get away with more, because they are more powerful forces within the culture. They have more money and more lawyers.