I'm a victim, too!

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And I here I was thinking you meant that conversations had literal lethal landmines in them and felt a desperate need to correct your incorrect view of actual reality.

Won’t someone please think of the words!

My comment included a simple template that you can use when someone mistakes something you said as having racist intent you didn’t intend. You could use it any time you wanted for any word.

  1. Say you were unaware of the problem with the word or phrase
  2. Apologize for using the word or phrase
  3. Re-express your original idea without using the word or phrase

If you do this, almost every time you will quickly find yourself expressing the idea you were trying to express rather than the word you used.

Here is the template you are following:

  1. Express annoyance that you can’t know how other people will react to what you say
  2. Catastrophize by pointing out that, from a philosophical point of view, literally any word could have this problem and therefore it’s the same as every word having this problem; and/or
  3. Suggest that minority groups who are offended by terms need to change their behaviour rather than you changing yours

If you do this, almost every time, there will be no further discussion of the idea behind the conversation and the person you are talking to will walk away thinking that you are somewhere between a typical ignorant white guy and a dyed-in-the-wool racist parrot Breitbart talking points.

You can choose which template to follow based on the outcome you desire.

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This is where the disparity happens.

It is not limited to persons in the past. Dogwhistles occur today and will occur in the future.

Sometimes the fact that you need to give this compliment, and the general compliments is itself insulting to the group.

Compliments that refer to a person’s general competency when their group is caricaturized as incompetent in some manner can be vaguely insulting, because it can be viewed as “for your group you are adequate and on my level.”

These are also often not real compliments but backhanded statements of general adequacy while pushing their peers out as inferior.

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Of course, people are able to say that! That pretty much reiterates a post I made upthread. [quote=“anon50609448, post:174, topic:90681”]
White people love to equate the latter with the former, while black people are expected to swallow their pride and accept racism every day of their lives.
[/quote]

True. That’s part of why I have been interested in opening the discussion to address this from the context of those who are neither white nor black. Natives are often also assumed to be feral ignorant creatures based upon our features, even if our skin isn’t that dark. I am not trying to claim “victimhood” here, but I don’t mind pointing out that it is weird that people are making a point to exclude/evade/lament my participation in a thread which is largely about the treatment of minorities upon the pretext that I am a whiner or seeking personal attention. Why is it a problem of cultural stereotypes for others, but it’s just a “personal problem” for me? And that when I ask about this I only get snarky hints about being part of he problem? I must be deaf to the problem that some people aren’t treated fairly! Welcome to Bizarrowurld…

Instead of discussing the issue, let’s bicker about who has the right to discuss the issue. /s

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It doesn’t give up its human privileges and biases immediately when one becomes a disjointed concept.

One would think that it would better strive to purge them.

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Who precisely would bestow such privileges? I do not consider myself superstitious.

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Okay, what particular sort of Native are you? And what percentage? And how do you know that? Does your corporeal appearance strike most observers as Native?

I ask because I’m trying to figure out what sort of identity-based claim you are making here… especially because it seems to me that if you have personal IRL experience with common forms of anti-Native/Indian discrimination, you’d likely have less trouble understanding why some would ask you to reconsider the use of “articulate” to describe a black person, particularly when conversing within a group in which a large percentage know and understand the cultural baggage that comes along with that usage of the word in the current U.S. context.

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Disbelieving in privilege of any variety causes it to not exist as a toddler holding their hands across their eyes becomes truly invisible.

We all have our blind spots, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t plenty to self-analyze to become a better being/detached consciousness.

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[quote=“jsroberts, post:179, topic:90681”]
It’s assumed to be condescending, because people in the past used English words and were condescending. I’m sure they did – people did and do have very regressive views. For this reason, I can continue to call white people articulate or intelligent, but not black people.[/quote]

So far as I’m aware, it’s the specific word “articulate” that carries the baggage. If you’d like to call an African-American intelligent, I don’t think you’d run into issues provided you didn’t frame it as a back-handed compliment. Anyway, as a fellow Aspie that seems to be the social rule I’ve sorted out. I might be off by a little since the rules are a bit fluid.

If I were to say some African-American person I admired was brilliant, a genius, talented, lucid, insightful, a mater of oratory, or had an excellent command of the language, and expressed it in a manner that conveyed sincere respect I don’t think there’d be anyone who’d take issue with it (unless they disagreed with the sentiment or something).

Communicating is complex. It involves a lot of rules, many unspoken, many which aren’t logical or linguistic, but social. If you’re aware that a particular word has some extra social history/connotation beyond its literal meaning this allows you to communicate more effectively. If your goal is to develop communication skills, then understanding the social dimensions of one’s vocabulary help. This word (like many others) has some extra social dimensions.

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Oh, I’ve tried that. But as a general rule, replacing a perfectly understandable word like articulate or Zionism with a whole lot of other words just gives those who are obsessively determined to find offense a whole lot more places to find it. I do not mean to imply you are one such; I know you are not.

@Israel_B and I have had several (I hope mutually) enjoyable conversations despite our differences of opinion on religion and politics, so empirically it is possible - as long as we ask for clarifications when necessary, and assist each other in understanding - to do so. He and I are both fairly blunt, I’d say, rather than politically correct.

Oh, they respond, all right. They rarely do so in any positive way, especially when they are essentially anonymous online, but positive response is not what everyone is necessarily looking for. Sometimes people just need to express themselves unilaterally.

Well if this thread can be “won” I think you just did it.

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Like almost everything else in life, it’s on an individual basis.

While I make statements that apply to the Black community as a whole in general, I’m not trying to speak on behalf of every individual within it.

Each person is different, despite sharing certain commonalities.

Personally, I strive to defy the stereotypes that I feel are most detrimental to well being of Black Americans:

  • That we are lazy - I’ve been working my ass off ever since I was 16.

  • That we are untrustworthy/unreliable - I make it my mission to do my due diligence in any endeavor that I undertake.

  • That we are uneducated and/or inherently ignorant - hopefully my commentary in general demonstrates my level of intellect, and the fact that I’ve been formally educated.

  • That we are morally/financially irresponsible, especially when it comes to having children that we cannot afford to raise - I have only one child, and I make sure that she is well cared for and all her needs are met.

  • That we are always loud, ill-behaved, “ghetto” and do not know how to act in public - again, hopefully my very presence and interactions help disprove that stereotype.

Well, to begin with, I’m not certain that being ‘biracial’ means the same thing to you as it does to me.

For me, it’s always meant being the child of two parents who are distinctly different in physical skin tone, a trait that is automatically visible to others.

Unlike anyone with hereditary traits that may not be so obvious, blending in with the Caucasian side has never been an option for me. Based solely on the way I look, I have and will always be “Other,” and while generally subconscious, that distinction has always been made very clear:

“You may be different, but you’re still not one of us.”

As for reconciling contradictory stereotypes, that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

While more inclusive, Black folks have their own set of internal stereotypes to contend with. Growing up, I was asked constantly by my peers:

“Why you talk so proper?” (They often asked this even when I used slang.) I can recall self-haters trying to dis me for not being ‘Black enough,’ and once being told “It’s a Black thing that you barely understand.”

So how do I reconcile such contradictions?

To put it in simplest terms, I keep in mind that people are people, and many of us are assholes; regardless to color.

Okay then; don’t. That’s your choice. I’m not sure why the tone of your comment seems so terse.

I get it that this is a sensitive topic for many people, but it’s a lot more uncomfortable for those of us who’ve lived under the burden of numerous unfair negative stereotypes since time out of mind.

I don’t think that anything ever “just goes away,” regardless to semantics. I also think that nothing ever changes if nothing changes. Inaction has never solved any problems, at least in my experience.

Again, everything we’re discussing here is an intentional system; not mere happenstance.

The structural hierarchy of our society as we know it has been orchestrated and manipulated for more than two centuries; by a tiny minority of people whose sole concern is keeping themselves at the top of the heap, and keeping everyone else beneath them.

And it’s still working, clearly.

Long story short;

I don’t have any easy answers, or even any answers at all.

I’m just yet another grain of sand on the endless beach of life, trying to get by as best I can.

What I do know is this;

Arguing endlessly doesn’t fix any problems.

Getting butthurt because others don’t see you the way you see yourself doesn’t rectify any injustices.

Denying the existence of problematic ideology doesn’t make it any less harmful to the people most affected by it.

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This is more of a meta discussion – if someone says that they’re offended by something I say to them, I apologise and try to rephrase it. If it’s a discussion of ideas, I’m happy not to cave into the other argument. I’m not offended at all. Catastrophising could also be better phrased as “reductio ad absurdum”, since the argument seems to be against the act of complementing someone’s intelligence rather than the word used. It can get absurd pretty quickly.

I did say this, so there’s no disparity there:

As in Biden’s case. On the other hand, if this is assumed in every case, we don’t get anywhere. The meaning of a word is made up of the intended message of the speaker (including any known or unknown biases, such as that they’re surprised to see this quality in a black person), the generally accepted dictionary and cultural meaning and the way the hearer understands it. All of these are important, and I find a lot of arguments try to isolate one and exclude the others to a large extent (whether saying “you shouldn’t be offended” or “this is what you really mean”. These meanings change over time and vary depending on the place. They also have a lot to do with the first meaning, so any words a racist person uses will carry some of that meaning. Stigmatising words fossilises them in the most negative form and with the worst people, while it’s possible to allow them to change naturally and push a more positive meaning (e.g. “gay” “black” “female” and other words are used in positive, negative and neutral ways, depending on the speaker and context).

Sorry, it was poorly phrased.

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That’s not the fault of the target of these words.

The beautiful thing about language IS that it holds meaning and context and history and we can just as easily use better, less tainted language for the same concept.

Pretending that words don’t have context and meaning as they are today used is far more harmful than consciousness about what they are.

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No harm, no foul.

When I make statements about such stereotypes, it should go without saying that I don’t believe that everyone thinks like that or actively feeds into the misperception.

I’m stating that such negative ideas still exist and that they still have an impact on how we interact with each other.

How to combat that is another question all together.

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I accept a lot of what you and others are saying – I think there’s a balance that has to take the individual context into consideration. When I talk to someone I expect them to attempt to understand my own intended meaning rather than assuming negative intent based on previous interactions with other people. In turn, I will try to understand what my words might mean to them, and adjust accordingly. It isn’t always easy, especially when dealing with a separate culture (in the sense that men and women or black and white people are subject to different cultural influences and can often hear a different meaning in the same words).

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Do you really think there are people out there who are obsessively determined to find offense? I know if you violate social boundaries by using ethnic slurs, using a certain set of terms that carry some extra baggage from having been used insults in the past (like hysterical or articulate), etc. that people will respond badly. That’s just part of being a human. I know those social boundaries are sometimes difficult to discern. But I really don’t see people obsessively determined to take offense as any kind of default state.

If you hop into a conversation with a position that’s perceived as potentially holding a kind of implicit bigotry of insensitivity, stereotyping, or hostility then others will (understandably) eye you with suspicion and be more prone to point out implicit assumption of prejudice. That seems more like what I see happening. Often the suspicion isn’t merited (IMO), and I could be all wrong, but it seems to me like the way you frame things brings up that response.

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Well if this thread can be “won” I think you just did it.

I feel the other way because I think about this a lot but then I don’t really have solutions. I notice all the time how I fail to communicate well, but feel like I need another way of operating. I feel like my old habit of speaking and writing doesn’t serve me. I feel constantly misunderstood because I want to be right instead of something else. I don’t even know what something else looks like. Just people talking and enjoying and hearing each other, I think.

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Part of that interaction is a give and take though.
If you use a word that has baggage you don’t know about, and I say, hey, that word, it has connotations that you obviously don’t mean in this context, then I expect you to then choose another word. I’ve accepted your intention, but in this thread you seem not to be accepting that others feelings also get consideration.

This conversation is veering perilously close to “I can use any word I want” territory, and sure, you can, but you also have to accept the consequences of using “any word”.

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Fair enough.

Regardless to anyone’s background, it’s often difficult not to project our own bias and interpretations onto others when we interact with them.

This is why the whole concept of “the Race Card” pisses me off:

First of all, this is real life, not a fucking card game.

Second; as a conscious Black person, I try very hard not to just assume that the reason behind any injustice or mistreatment I may experience is automatically due to racism.

In those situations, I internally question my perception and try to analyze all the known aspects of the situation before drawing any conclusions about others’ motivations.

And sometimes, it’s hard to tell if something is racially motivated, while at others it’s flagrantly obvious.

Also, I’m posting this again because not only is it apt, but this thread sorely needs some levity:

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I thoroughly agree! But it’s an effort worth making with anyone, let it be understanding or expressing my care for friends, my spouse, that collaboration is as essential as it can be awkward. I try to adapt as best I can, always imperfectly, but what other option do we have?

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I am Métis, which means that I am biracial. My family has never been clear about the region or percentage, because most of them try to pass for white. Nearest I can figure, some are from the east coast and probably a mix of French and Mi’kmaq, and some from the inland east less certainly being a mix of French and Algonquin. Unfortunately it is hard to puzzle out since my family appear to not be very proud of their American heritage. Even if I could afford DNA tests I am skeptical that it would “reconnect” me to my roots in any practical way.

I had to bother my mother about it because I thought that we did not look European. Enough people think that I look native for me to get hinted comments about it, although some guess I am hispanic or Italian instead. A lot of it depends upon how much sun I get. My skin is really chameleonic (red flag!) in that it gets white when I stay indoors, but turns reddish when have been outdoors for a day or so. But I do have distinctively Euro blue eyes

I don’t really think of my ethnicity as being a “claim”. But people do treat it like that. Compared to other groups, I get the daily eye for looking like I do, while being asked to “prove” my heritage in a way other groups don’t have to deal with. I never encounter anybody being told that they aren’t really African American if they no longer have knowledge of or a cultural link with their precise origins in Africa.

I relate to it, but I also wonder why I should get called out on this when I am subject to a similar stereotype myself. My experience suggests that it problematic specifically when white people say it. And I did ask about it in this context numerous times. But again, rethinking or reconsidering suggests that I will arrive at a better consensus without dialog. Traditionally, learning has not been a process of being left alone to try answers at random.

I did agree that I should be more careful in using the word, but still people have complained at length that that needs to be sufficient for some reason, that any further questions I have consitute “lawyering”. I become skeptical when a person is admonished that they should be expected to know something, yet people seem really eager to close off discussion of it. That’s not how I teach my children. I perceived it as: “You’ve been given The Right Answer, now stop asking questions.”

Thank you for taking a moment to actually engage me about this. It is nice to be able to talk to people without feeling that I am being ganged up upon.

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