Just if you must have meat-like foods but are concerned about animal welfare.
That and the bridge function @anon15383236 mentioned are the only 2 use cases that make sense to me.
But, as with all new things, some people “just want to try them.”
Oh, and someone brought up a good point on another of these threads, that for parents who are vegetarian and raising their children vegetarian it’s really nice to have food that seems “normal” for their non-veggie friends to have if they come visit after school and such. It was about fake chicken tenders, but could apply here, especially with our big grilling/gathering weekend.
Yah, I can see this argument, actually. The animal welfare angle makes sense.
My sister is such a parent, and this is also a good point. My nephew is 15 and for the past few years has decided he’s vegetarian. He likes all the modern meat alternatives, for all the reasons in this thread. However I’m a bit concerned for his health because of how much of them he eats. Basically every day for dinner, which I don’t think is good.
I wouldn’t say they have no practical use. I don’t think they should be a staple of anyone’s diet, though neither should the real thing particularly, but they are a way for people who don’t want to eat animals to get a quick, easy dose of protein, and they are generally fortified with B12, which is otherwise fairly scarce in vegan food. They also wouldn’t need to have so much sodium in them if people would stop being such irrational dicks about MSG…
It’s definitely important to raise kids with good home cooking, and show them how to put together meals. My mom is someone i’d describe as a gifted cook and because she likes to make things from scratch where possible i also have the point of view. I dislike premade meals and overly processed ingredients, and while there may be times i will use them i prefer not to if i can.
Especially for vegetarians and vegans the quality of the ingredients and their nutritional value is important to get the most out of them. People also have the wrong impression that vegetables are boring unless you do a lot to them, they’re just cooking the wrong things and not using appropriate seasonings (and likely under or overcooking ingredients).
Considering how much arable land and water are used to first grow feed crops and then support the animals until slaughter, and then the transport to the stockyard and slaughterhouse and afterwards to wherever the animals are processed into the thousands of various products – from simple chops to spam – there really is no contest between the two systems.
Especially because the flavour of canned tuna it’s quite different (ok if you happen to be in Bologna and ask for spaghetti alla bolognese you are going to find that doesn’t have meat in it, and by the way spaghetti alla marinara are with seafood)
You can make spaghetti alla norma, or spaghetti alla puttanesca (minus the anchovies) and you can have really good vegan dishes that aren’t trying to pass as dishes with meat.
My mom makes a traditional Italian dish that is made with herbs, like spinaches, turnip leaves, poppy leaves, nettle and the like, some egg and some cheese, and it’s a poor dish but it’s quite tasty, the shape it’s like as a burger, but doesn’t try to pass as an hamburger. There are also similar industrial products one could find in supermarkets.
Really I prefer an old farinata di ceci or fagioli all’uccelletto, a focaccia con cipolle or even a ratatouille.
No contest between which two systems? I wasn’t arguing the carbon footprint isn’t lower for vegetarianism. Of course it is. These industrial meat substitutes though? We know very little about their supply chains and processes right now. If they were scaled up to the same volume per capita as meat, how would it compare? We have no way to say right now.
The CBC article does make a few claims that are low on substance, and at least one outright dishonest one. It makes use of the emotionally loaded term “ultra-processed”, which lacks anything approaching an objective definition, or any explanation of which processes it is that makes food bad for you. Same story for industrialised, lab grown etc. These are largely just emotionally loaded phrases that appeal to a natural vs unnatural narrative without actually making an argument.
As for sodium, I can see articles elsewhere on the internet that start off with what appears to be a solid claim that sodium content is higher in meat substitutes, but when you read on they tend to soften their language to “many” or “some” meat substitutes, without actually citing any examples for exactly what brands they’ve been comparing and what meat they’ve been comparing it to.
Some of the same articles that state that sodium content is higher also state that saturated fat is actually lower?
But the big, stinking dishonest argument is one of the oldest, which is the environmental harm of soya production. Anyone who mentions this in the context of veganism, but doesn’t mention that anywhere from 85 to 95% of soya is actually grown for animal feed is being dishonest, or at least uncritically repeating a dishonest argument. Not to mention the fact that many of the new generation of meat substitutes are actually based on pea protein, not soya.
Pretty sure it will have meat in it, but little to no tomato. They will also probably throw you out of the restaurant for asking for spaghetti rather than tagliatelle with ragù bolognese
ETA: see below. There absolutely is a spaghetti Bolognese, and it does contain tuna
This particular article is not a rigorous scientific paper, it’s an overview on a popular news site. However it’s consistent with what I’ve been reading elsewhere. The artificial meats are not poisonous or anything, and probably not much worse than meat, but we can at least be comfortable saying they are not healthier. That’s not a radical statement or difficult to support. I chose this article to post because it’s a nice summary of the issues with these products, not because it’s an in-depth scientific analysis.
Which one is that?
I think this is fair, that term is a little loaded and not very meaningful. However there is a lot more processing in these things than, say, crackers or potato chips (the typical definition of “processed foods” that people use). I think it’s fair to use a strong term, especially since most people don’t realize how processed these meat alternatives are. They think it’s “just vegetables of some unspecified type” when in fact there’s a lot of high tech chemistry and genetics involved in their creation. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but something we should keep an eye on.
The CBC does not have some sort of pro-meat agenda, if that’s what you’re driving at. Forgive me if you aren’t, but they aren’t motivated to discredit meat substitutes. The CBC is far from perfect, but they remain one of the few honest and genuine news sources in this world. This article is not some sort of secret-agenda hit piece.
The outright dishonest argument would be the soya one, in that it’s a dishonest argument to mention the environmental impact of soya production in reference to meat substitutes/veganism, without mentioning that the vast majority of it is grown for animal feed, or that a lot of new meat substitutes are actually made from pea protein, not soya.
I don’t think the CBC have a pro-meat agenda.
I do think that even good sources can uncritically repeat bad arguments, especially with regards to science and health, and I do think that it’s inevitable that the meat industry will be taking a leaf out of the oil and tobacco industries’ old playbook, of manufacturing doubt and confusion to push back against an emerging unfavorable scientific consensus.
“Ultra-processed foods were defined as industrial formulations which, besides salt, sugar, oils and fats, include substances not used in culinary preparations, in particular additives used to imitate sensorial qualities of minimally processed foods and their culinary preparations”
Yeah I really don’t feel that definition justifies the existence of the term ‘ultra-processed’ at all. It doesn’t really even justify using ‘processed’ as the catch-all term for low quality, mass produced food, as it doesn’t define it in terms of processes.
With regards to any kind of substitute for animal products, whether meat, cheese, eggs whatever, it is always difficult to use nothing but plant derived kitchen ingredients to fill, for instance, the umami gap in the flavour profile.
So meat substitutes are kind of condemned to always be categorised as ultra-processed according to that definition, even though there’s no reason a lab concocted chemical cocktail that replicates the taste of meat or cheese is necessarily harmful to the consumer or the environment.
Oh, yah, I agree that claim is bullshit. I must have skimmed over that part.
Definitely! On that we agree, for sure. Especially since news organizations don’t really have dedicated science reporters anymore, so you never know if a particular piece was written by the sports guy who did some googling or whatever.
I had a bowl of alla Norma sauce with feta cheese crumbled over it at a restaurant at the other end of our street that might have been one of the nicest things I’ve ever eaten. What those guys can do with an aubergine is fucking amazing (Rebel, for any mutants in Newcastle. If you haven’t been, go).
Most of the “concern” I’ve seen seems to be around emulsifiers, as there are no equivalent substances used in normal cooking or food prep. They have demonstrated some problems in gut microbes when they’re present, but AFAIK, it’s nothing more than something that needs more study for now.
No I think @Michele71 had it right, being from Italy after all.
All over the world people imagine spaghetti bolognese with a meat ragù . But that’s wrong. Because the real traditional dish of the city is actually spaghetti with tuna and tomato. The Accademia Italiana della Cucina officially clarified this after years of controversy.
Many people say “Spaghetti alla Bolognese doesn’t exist!” as a response to this mistake, but they in turn are mistaken… Spaghetti alla Bolognese is actually a traditional - but little known - dish here. It’s one of my favourites. It’s traditionally served on Fridays, which traditionally are days in which you shouldn’t consume meat, or on Christmas Eve.
