Is cell phone do bad to child in classroom?!11?

The idea that something purporting to be a “Statistics Course” would be OK with unleashing people who don’t have enough understanding of what the magic does to be able to sanity-check their work is pretty deeply chilling.

It’s hard to make a case for the error-prone joys of manually summing zillions of values to get an average and similar grunt work; but knowing what the various operations are supposed to achieve is vital to being able to take a look at your results and ask “Does this make any sense, or should I re-check?”.

Having people blindly copying data into EZ-P-value and dutifully transcribing the results is a horrifying perversion of that.

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Sounds about right, but why? Of course not everyone is an autodidact, but the world is a fascinating place and kids are wired to learn - it’s in their nature. At least when they’re young, they love it! So why would they go limp or be bored or distract themselves with Whisper/Tumblr/whatever?

What if the standardized factory methods of teaching might be that bad thing that drives kids to seek distraction? Why would a child who was so joyful to learn something new when they were younger, be so bored a few years later?

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Yes, that’s pretty much it. I didn’t have enough time to make my reply that succinct. And I agree that I’m empirically wrong if you look with a finely toothed enough comb

I was pretty far ahead of the class when I was a kid, and there were enough subjects where my “distraction” actually was self-enrichment that I believe most of the folks here claiming they did that are likely being honest. I also remember that there were enough subjects where my distraction was on par with yours to suspect that if they did that for ore than 1 or 2 subjects, it’s probably confabulation

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Sitting quietly in rows for eight hours a day is a miserable experience, but I still resist the notion that children and young adults are somehow fundamentally different from us disenchanted adults. At this point, most toddlers are distracted from the supposed joys of the world by electronic gadgets and they are not all brushing up on wikipedia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHqbcGgf90o

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I feel a little bad that I’ve lobbed an education grenade in and run away. To be honest, I am also not a wholehearted techno-booster – I hate “DO VIDEO GAME DO GOOD CHILD EDUCATION?!” as much as the other questions I’ve mentioned.

PatrickD, yeah – clickers and online polls are more helpful for huge classes, or when there are students who are too shy to speak up. And I’m with you that we shouldn’t exclude students who don’t have high-end tech. Cell phones were sort of standing in for “technology generally” in this episode; they’re really there because people were asking Google this weird question.

pjcamp, yes, I agree: multitasking is bad, and we’re all going to need to societally acknowledge that, rather than pretending it’s one of the benefits of technology.

But as an educator, particularly at the college levels (I taught a year at a liberal arts college, in addition to various shorter-term, summer-or-afterschool education gigs), I strongly feel that it is up to students to learn how to manage their time, and if we keep them in a complete state of surveillance and demands on their time, they won’t learn that. I didn’t come up in school at a time when tech was a distraction in class, but I did come up at a time when it was a distraction at work, and like everyone else, I’ve had to learn one way or another how to manage my time on the job. My default is saying to students that I’m generally not going to ding them for fucking around on the internet or their phones in class, but it sure is likely that not paying attention will hurt their grades, and this is up to them. And I’m absolutely merciless with grade-grubbers.

Demanding that students give up their phones at the door of the school – which many New York City schools do – is ultimately disempowering and problematic for students, and that’s mostly what I meant to address in the episode. See the first example in the episode: parents may need to get in touch with kids for important reasons.

The Apple Classrooms of Tomorrow study from the early 1980s also stays in my mind. The study found that one of the reasons teachers often didn’t adopt or allow computers was they were not prepared for student-driven inquiry, for letting students take the wheel, and for the inevitable student interaction and extra noise and excitement that involves. We need to be ready for technology challenging our assumptions about what learning looks like – including dealing with our feelings that were are not “in control” of the class.

PatrickD, I was surprised to hear you were a linguistics professor. Much of what I studied was sociolinguistics – I’m assuming you’re more into the Chomskyan mechanics of things? One of the things sociolinguistics suggested to me (I’m going on James Paul Gee’s work, here) is that students are less engaged when the discourse worlds they live in at home are not engaged with in the classroom – the ways of speaking, and how those shape their sense of who they are. Mismatches of home and school also impact how we use technology in the classroom, and whether students follow our lead. Many teachers are certainly introducing students to ways of using technology that look nothing like how they and their families and friends use technology at home. This is great when it gets students to expand their repertoire – say, working on a Wikipedia article rather than just copy-pasting its contents for a paper – but can also be alienating, say when students use shorthands and emoji at home, but a teacher demands they email in a form of “proper English” from which they are excluded.

Students are not empty vessels to be filled (as cognitive science and much of educational philosophy also backs up); I’m sure most of you on here who are educators agree. If students are not engaged, as other commenters have said, there’s probably a good reason why. It might be because they’re working two jobs and have kids! If they’re outright bored and distracted, it might be because they haven’t yet seen a way that the material connects with their lives.

Personally I’d feel it was a colossal tragedy if students – working-class students in particular! – were disengaged in linguistics class. There is so much in linguistics which can help students validate their race-, class-, or gender-tinged experiences – stuff they might not ever hear anywhere else. Linguistic discrimination is so rarely talked about.

(Caveat/detour: I went to Hampshire College, where we had no tests and no grades. I learned by being given enough rope to hang myself with. I wouldn’t trade that for anything; it’s how I learned to start and finish things, to give up on lingering half-finished projects, and to not fall into procrastination or beating-myself-up habits which were mostly formed by being told what to do by someone else. Also I learned that sociolinguistics is fully awesome.)

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and I meant to say, YES, everyone please look into the ways in which schools were asked to prepare workers for factories. Still persists in the structure of our schools today.

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I’ve taught large lectures with clickers, and there are some cool things you can do with them for which hands don’t work, but the benefit in my case has been more than negated by the problems with getting the tech to work (beginning with getting the students to bring the clickers to class and make sure the batteries are fresh).

Private school?

I think this describes a very large fraction of the statistics classes taught outside of statistics and mathematics departments. I’ve had people who teach such courses ask me questions that any of my students would be expected to be able to answer.

I just had such a statistics course (Statistics and Probability) as part of a Computer Science curriculum. Despite the fact that the professor teaching it is well known for … well, frankly, incompetence … I went into it with great hope, as I knew enough about the material to know that this is useful stuff and potentially interesting material.

I really should have known better than to get my hopes up.

Most of the time, it seemed like he didn’t really understand the material that well himself, or at least he knew the mechanics of it, but couldn’t really explain it very well. The text used numerous examples with dice and cards, of course, but he stated that he had trouble following those sometimes as he wasn’t always sure of the configuration of a standard deck of cards. (Which seems like one of those things you might want to learn if your subject uses them as common examples, but what do I know?)

As we approached the midterm exam, he essentially started teaching towards using various software to solve the problems. I personally wouldn’t have minded that so much if he’d pick one and stick with it, but he’d jump from Excel to SciLab to web pages that he found while trying to teach the class. This was more than a bit scattered, and I’m not sure if anyone really learned anything from it, except that watching him try to operate a computer was painful. After two weeks of “this is how to do this kind of distribution using software” he sent out a notice less than 24 hours before the midterm stating that we would not be allowed to use software on the exam.

Even by the final, for which we were at least able to use our notes, most of us had just enough information to be able to do the formulas for a given distribution, but really very little idea of what any of the variables actually meant. (So lambda=4, x=10, and t=2 for a Poisson process … OK, sure I’ve got a formula for that, I can give you the probability mass function, but I’m really unclear as to how to set up the variables without them clearly stated. That seems like the kind of thing that would have been useful to talk about, doesn’t it?)

The rest of the class did not get any better. I won’t go into the full details here, although I’ve discussed it with my program adviser. I’d actually love to file a formal complaint about the professor, but he’s the chair of the CS department, so I’d essentially have to bypass him and go straight to the dean. I passed the class and only have one semester left, so I’m just going to let it go, but I found this to be the most frustrating waste of my time (and money, of course) in my whole experience at the college.

Honestly, it doesn’t make me feel that much better to learn that this is normal for a stats class!

This thread is closing in 2 days, which bums me out – this is some great discussion. If you’d like to keep going, The Media Show has a Facebook page, and you can follow us on Twitter @TheMediaShow!

My kids’ middle school encourages students to bring a cell phone to school. Part of what they are taught is appropriate use of technology.

Kids are encouraged to use their phone calendar for tracking test and assignment dates, they are told to take pictures of their homework assignments, and teachers use something like twitter to broadcast information to kids. For homework, they are encouraged to make a virtual homework group so that they can help each other with assignments. It seems to work fairly well.

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What do the students who don’t have smartphones do?

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I think they are encouraged to use their computer. It’s clunkier but it works.

Edit: just asked my daughter and she said that everybody had a phone, mostly (but not all) smart phones. I think that’s pretty normal these days.

I wouldn’t trust a middle-schooler to have an accurate view of what people outside of her group do or do not have. My son’s phone was (and still is) a feature phone on a paygo plan, and he did not and does not use social media. His decision. This was sometimes a disadvantage, for example when social events were organized someone would have to contact him by voice or email. Had his school required a cell phone or Twitter or Facebook account for something academic my wife and I would have rushed down to read the riot act to the principal.

He also didn’t carry his (heavy desktop replacement) laptop to school.

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The other claim I hate other than MEDIUM DO BAD TO CHILD is “the kids these days.” Let’s keep in mind there are kids out there facing all kinds of different backgrounds, family situations, etc. I think it’s not useful to make generalizations about whole generations.

I know that the district where I last worked had a new citizen smartphone policy specifically geared toward middle-schoolers. While I see the benefits, just like @d_r, I also question the level playing field for all middle school students across the district. The parents pay for the data usage, not the district, and it flies in the face of equal access.

This is also a bit of a bugaboo for me because students who actively take notes tend to learn the material better. You’d be surprised how many high school students refuse to take notes, but then slow down the class by asking me to let them come up to take pictures off the board, laptop, wherever. I’ve handed out prompts and posted them online, only to have students ask to snap a picture of it the day before the assignment is due. Smartphones are a great tool, but an over-dependence upon them really makes for poor study and organizational skills.

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Now, this seems like a good use of tech! This is preparing kids for real, grown-up time management – not some weird school-only practice like “we take your phones away at the door.” Though I should note – a colleague of mine doing a study on low-wage workers also found their bosses took away their phones when they entered the workplace. Just like school bells and tracking prepared earlier students for factory labor, so current school conditions prepare students for the kind of labor we expect them to do today :disappointed:

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This is also a bit of a bugaboo for me because students who actively take notes tend to learn the material better.

As far as I know, it’s pretty much limited to photographing homework related stuff, not as a replacement for note taking. It’s stuff like “Read pages 17-22 and try the even numbered problems on page 23”.

The cell phone policy is well liked. This year that just ended was the second year of it and it’s fairly well entrenched now. I can’t remember the name of the Twitter-like service they use, but it isn’t a wide-open social network. The teacher can broadcast to the class and students can communicate with the teacher and that’s about it. If a kid doesn’t have a phone, messages go to their student email.

I’m personally pretty happy with they way they are handling cell phones. As far as not carrying the laptop - that isn’t an option. They are required to bring them.

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Edging in here to say that can be easily solved if people want to. OLPC was/is of course a rather ambitious attempt at solving it. I’ve also seen a number of discussions where IT people who work for schools talk about the pros and cons of having issued Ipads vs Chromebooks to the students. Of course they’re not issuing them everywhere yet, and there are still some problems, but within a few years there will probably be a fairly standard, relatively easily managed device that costs far less than a textbook. Especially as textbook prices keep increasing and hardware prices keep decreasing. Cheap android phones are already less than a textbook.

I had one professor this past semester that had even mostly stopped posting her lecture slides. She found that it was actually hurting many of the students, as they wouldn’t take notes since they knew she was going to post the material online. Personally, if I take a picture, it’s as a backup to my notes, and is almost completely reserved for diagrams or the like, mostly to be sure I drew it correctly. I’ll do the same thing when we’re having meetings and drawing out relational tables on the whiteboard or something, so it feels pretty normal to me.

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Yeah, there’s a difference between sitting in class and not actively participating (i.e., taking notes, asking questions, adding to the discussion) and the opposite. I’ve had students take meticulous notes and then come up and ask to take pictures, which I encouraged because they were doing this for reinforcement. These students always mastered the material. I’ve even taken photos to make sure that I’ve covered the same material in different periods. I’m specifically thinking about students who aren’t paying attention. I often wonder how they coped in college when they had profs who lectured at a fairly consistent clip and used minimal visual aids?

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