Indeed. If I was single, some contingent of my guy friends would expect me to seek out casual sex (especially the married ones). Personally, it seems like a lot of work for not enough pay out. I’d rather go fishing in that case. Maybe for some it is brag rights? More about the demonstration of one’s virility and masculinity than actual enjoyment of the act?
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I think we agree on a few points, but I don’t agree with the idea that the elimination of sexism with equality for everyone magically makes situations like this better. I don’t have enough faith in humanity to believe that narcissistic assholes still wouldn’t exist and take advantage of others.
I never made the claim that sexism was soley responsible for narcissistic assholes. Women are just as capable of shit behavior as men are. But long held sexist beliefs and double standards with respect to hetero sex have normalized and perpetuated these behaviors specifically. Still, I believe things are changing for the better.
Edit: clarification
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I think America should strive to be less prudish, but I think Americans are sexually liberated already, at least compared to 50 years ago.
Well, from what I have observed and been told, in many man-woman hookups the woman doesn’t get off even if the man does. So, basically men suck at pleasuring their partners as much as themselves?
/s
50 years ago, men generally instituted hookups. They were called one-night stands, and there was a lot of shame assigned to a woman who had one (or more).
30 years ago, women could ask out men, even for an evening of “hanging out” (aka casual sex). It was beginning to be accepted, but the women were considered bold, liberated, or sluts.
10 years ago, we got computer hookups; anyone could sext or swipe. No shame assigned, except on social media by his/her “friends”.
Is having casual sex feminist? Maybe. Are the couple feminists? If yes, then yes. If no, then no.
The ability to institute a hookup is not inherently feminist from my perspective.
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Thanks, but the subjects of sexual and gendered inequality are depressing enough as they play out in women’s experiences,…I feel that your comments and clarifications only make it more starkly evident.
Many, if not most men can be incredibly self-centred, without seeing the negative consequences for their partners, and even for themselves. I agree that the ‘rules’ aren’t clearly defined. But why think in terms of threat of repercussion? Women aren’t in a position to be sexual enforcers; it doesn’t work that way. A dissatisfied woman is hardly judge and jury, actually due to power structures they remain in many ways disempowered. As a baseline, women are imperfect, contingent, evolving individuals just as men are. So what about the possible rewards of giving, treating each other equally, of human connection, in other words more engaged sex? I don’t mean committed relationships or marriage. Apparently men aren’t socialised to give a shit about others, but I suggest that they have the agency and power to do so. should they choose.
Also, I disagree with pornhub as a metric for the practices or dynamics at stake here. It doesn’t represent anything like the kind, or the variety, of experiences I’m personally looking for.
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I don’t think that the majority of men “ aren’t socialised to give a shit about others”. Yet, I agree that many women make poor experiences with their lovers.
Maybe we see the combination of two bias:
- women satisfied by their lover are less likely to report so than the ones who are not. First, the first ones may not want to tell around what pearl they have found. Second: complaining about your lovers is fashionable.
- women may actually feel more attracted to less sensitive men. Why? Because, in our culture, male values are linked to being agressive and independent. Because we are attracted to a social representation of the other sex, men who conform to that social representation may have more dating success than the ones who do not (just as for women, where the ones who conform to the feminine stereotype have more dating success). Unfortunately, our cultural male stereotype is correlated to being inconsiderate of their partner, so there is another bias.
I’m not even talking about the play of the game, but everything around the game.
For example, I play board games. If I’m playing with a stranger at a convention, while what I want out of a game may be quite different from others, there is the cultural expectation that we’ll both treat each other with enough respect that we’ll attempt to find some middle ground.
For example - say I play for the joy of winning. Why don’t I abandon the game as soon as it’s likely I won’t win?
Despite the fact that there’s no enforcement mechanism and no consequences to bad behaviour, unless I’m truly a sociopath, we humans generally give in to cultural expectations.
The unspoken (or spoken) assumption that men seeking casual sex are more sociopathic leads to the cultural expectation of sociopathic behaviour, which leads to a lot more sociopathic behaviour.
Better to treat those who want casual sex like those who like bungie-jumping. Both activities might leave me cold when I think about my participation, but have no bearing on my judgement of the character of the actual participants.
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The position I reacted to hinged on a closer identification with the typically men’s role and behaviours. That grates, because I can recognise the attitudes it explicated. Any men continuing in that pattern are failing to treat others equally, in whatever context. The effect is, at best, to delay progress that could improve the quality of our social interactions… Or, it may be a case of symbolically accepting something that looks like equality, but actually functions to maintain a sexist status quo. But it isn’t helping to produce an acceptably feminist structure, yet.
I don’t particularly agree with your characterisations of women either. To be blunt, why are you giving me the answer of what women talk about, and what they want? Maybe they don’t tell you who’s good in bed. Maybe certain complaints are justified. I don’t know what to say to your second point. What about someone who seems sensitive, but turns out just as selfish under the feminist veneer. It isn’t that uncommon nowadays. But how to call this out? If we must put up with it in order to have “dating success”, things are still pretty bad. I’m just complaining again? Fashionable? No.
Incidentally, I just saw a tshirt on instagram that said “make a woman cum for once”. Even though that’s a bit sensational maybe, it really shouldn’t need to be said.
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Actually, it was not my intention to characterize women (or men). Why you thought it was, I don’ know.
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I don’t know anything about hook up culture, but I do know a lot about internalising misogyny in myself by celebrating the masculine and denying the feminine. I don’t know where I got the ideas from, but since I was a really little girl I hated dresses, pink, ponies, dolls, all that kind of thing. I read the Hardy Boys, but hated Nancy Drew. I hated having my hair done. Always dressed in tshirts and jeans.
Whether it was because I looked up to my brothers or because of my agenderness, I don’t know.
I’m 32 now. I still hate having my hair done. But I loooooooooooove pink. I like a couple of dresses, but not many. More into leggings and long tshirts right now. But it has taken me a long time to meld these parts of myself. I am ashamed I looked down on things that are traditionally feminine. That I put more value in things that are more traditionally masculine.
I see where I still have to go, I am proud when my daughter chooses to play with blocks or footballs, but I’ll get there.
Sorry, that all seems rambling.
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No, it’s not. It’s valuable. Thanks for sharing your experiences with misogyny. Mine are rather similar.
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You should not be. Not liking « things that are traditionally feminine » is not « internalising misogyny »
It simply is not liking these things.
I am male. I don’t like sports cars or football. I actually despise football supporters. It does not mean I hate men, just that I do not like these things. I don’t feel ashamed and think you should not be.
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Yes, it is internalizing misogyny. Our society demeans traditionally feminine pursuits, generally speaking.
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It is because it wasn’t just that I didn’t like it (and I probably did, but I had internalised that it wasn’t of value) I actively looked down on it. I saw ‘Girly Girls’ as inferior to me. I only wanted to be friends with Tom Boys.
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