Don’t like it. In the subsequent decision/analysis tree I then have to track both (or even more) the branches. A few ambiguous nodes and from one line through the graph you have half of the graph full. You can prune some of the branches by careful work with getting new data and/or by a cutoff for low-probability possibilities, but that’s it.
Ambiguity adds uncertainty and a lot of work, and in case of high stakes also a lot of fear/anxiety.
What if it’s not an engineering problem?
Everything is an engineering problem.
If only it were so. Life would be easy.
Either it is an engineering problem (inputs, outputs, variables known and unknown, models, data flows, behaviors, feedbacks and interdependences…) or I don’t know how to even start approaching it.
Works usably on large swaths of all sorts of problems.
@Tropo/ @shaddack We are being constructive (I think…)!!!
Does that mean that this discussion is finally Progressing?!?
I forgot what it progress looked like, it’s so… beautiful!
Don’t get me wrong, mathematical modeling is groovy shit. There is a lot that can be done with broad categories of problems. It’s simple and elegant when you get it right.
I’m going to use an anecdote here. When I was very young I always dreaded PE. I could run fast, and do other physical things well, but I could not catch a ball to save my life. I couldn’t understand how everyone else was plotting the trajectories in real time, and I had about a 5% success rate.
Later I came across sports I was good at like cycling and rock climbing, and one of the things I noticed along the way was there were aspects of the activities that took me out of the state of constantly trying to plan the next move. My mind apparently had the wiring to do the work, even if I wasn’t thinking about how it was done.
Applying this “approach” to catching a ball, brought me up to speed.
The other thing I would like to point out is despite the anger and frustration and fear, blaming others, and making sweeping generalizations will always poison the feedback loop. You talk about being bitter and giving up in the past. That’s throwing up an insurmountable wall to any future progress. It’s basically saying to anyone you want to relate to, “this is your fault before we’ve even started.”
People have to meet in the middle to move forward, and if you carry all of the bitterness forward and dump it in the lap of the next prospective relationship, how do you expect them to respond?
How’s that relevant here?
I absolutely loathed PE. Can’t run at any reasonable speed, get tired too fast, larger-scale coordination nothing to speak of. (Or, if you want a neurosurgery or handling 0204 sized parts, ask me with confidence; but my dancing will suck.)
Went so far that I had to get a doc note to take me out of the class, as the teacher insisted that I have to pass the tests or I will get failed, which would mean getting kicked out of a selective school.
I understand that. Works for some workshop techniques.
But for social things, the instinct that should be there, the feelings triggered by observation, aren’t there. I get one big blank.
The alternative, trying to track the variables I can see and interpret, overtaxes me quickly. And the growing uncertainties in the evaluations bring anxiety. Lots of it.
Mostly there is no feedback loop to talk of. To feedback, the other party has to tell me more explicitly than just making faces or voice tones; I’ll get lost in those very soon. I am not getting the explicit data, with a very small amount of exceptions in life.
You wouldn’t? Social rejection shares processing circuitry with physical pain. It really hurts rather badly, and getting worse with every subsequent one. Failing the feedbacked comm leads to guess what. Succeeding is improbable, without help from the other side which is not happening. An attempt is exhausting and promises mostly just pain. Hard to not give up. And hard to not being bitter when those for whom it is not exhausting, who read and interpret and then react on instinctive level and therefore actually have feedback to work with, keep eating my lunch.
I need readable feedback. Without it, no dice, no chance, better not waste the energy and avoid getting hurt yet again.
Oh well…
So what keeps you going when you come across an engineering problem you don’t easily have the answer to?
By now mostly just tagging along with a friend here or there. Usually with primary intent being some shop talk with some guy (who else to talk shop, be realistic…), and an odd hope for an outlier that keeps not materializing.
I was more speaking along the lines of it seems you look at engineering projects as an ongoing process (See the post about the basement full of projects), yet personal relationships are somehow entirely win or lose, success or failure. Why is that? Why can’t a relationship be the same sort of ongoing process, with interesting and or frustrating problems along the way?
Because they are. What we are talking about are sub-problems, individual interactions. If there is a success, it carries over to another iteration which then has chance to happen. If not, no dice.
A major success is any level of haptic contact; I for some reason don’t process what I see/hear as “100%-real” and have to touch it or get touched so it starts “existing”. But even for such stupid little thing one has to go through a maze of nonverbal give-and-take where I reliably fail.
…have to run for some errand… bleh…
Do you verbalize your difficulty when that happens? I mean, flat out stating " look, things have progressed to this point, and I’m not very good at nonverbal communication, so I need to talk about what we’re doing."
Yes. Sometimes it helps a bit. Usually not much as people are often unable to even imagine what it is. They are sending a lot of data through the nonverbal channel and aren’t even aware of it. Hard to verbalize something you don’t even know about.
If it is at least a vaguely technical conversation I can hold my end of it. But that’s it. Any affection-related component of the communication just is Not There.
…and then I can as well write an email, without the cognitive overhead and subsequent exhaustion…
Well, take my situation and then come with yet another restriction on something I want for the kind of fun that I am able to actually get. You won’t meet with a joyful friendly reaction. If I can’t feel loved, then at least DO NOT touch my toys - no negotiations there.
…and I have to go now for real. Have to pay a debt a friend incurred in my name when I was trying to be nice and helpful. Foolish move it was then.
Any affection-related component of the communication just is Not There.
Or more likely it hasn’t been there, but could be in the future under the right conditions. Even if it has, are you open to seeing what the other person is trying to say or are you doing all of that predictive analysis and expecting something specific?
Even with someone willing to make the effort to communicate verbally, when they are used to physical cues, and you are not, it’s going to be a clumsy process for both of you at first. You may have to embrace the ambiguity in the communication, and treat it as a long term process. The other person involved has every right to walk away at any time, as do you. That’s just how it is. If you can drop the past bitterness and not apply it to every new attempt at connecting with someone, you may have a chance.
I understand this. Even as someone who has been in a relationship since I was 20. Sometimes it’s really difficult to understand different non-verbal signals, and common advice doesn’t always seem to apply. I have been assured that women generally aren’t attracted to jerks, but I’ve met many women who repeatedly end up with men where all I’m left with is “he must be really good in bed”. We all have monkey brains and people’s attraction isn’t necessarily rational (whether they are men or women). Fortunately I’m with someone who is committed enough to me, because with some issues I had to sit down and ask direct questions multiple times before she was willing to give usable verbal feedback. Communication is a two way street and it’s important for both people to find ways to get the information across.
Some things I’ve found, which may or may not apply to you:
Friendzoning - I’m not convinced this only applies to one kind of relationship or gender configuration. I think it’s an imbalance where one person is investing heavily in a relationship expecting a progression past its current position, and the other person is happy with the current arrangement. If you’re going to be giving into a relationship, make sure you’re happy with what you’re getting out of it right now, or be clear about where you want it to go. The other person may well value the current relationship highly and see it as far more than a stepping stone on the way to something else, and this imbalance will end up causing bitterness on both sides if it isn’t addressed. If they aren’t willing to go further and you aren’t willing to invest that much in your current relationship, it’s OK to back down to avoid burning yourself out or feeling used.
Women often want someone they feel comfortable being identified with, who is interesting and comfortable in themselves and whose lifestyle fits their own. Being nice or providing things and helping people isn’t enough by itself (especially now that women are more financially independent), even though it’s often a kind of ‘love language’. On the other hand, it can really help when the attraction is already there. Physical appearance is also important, but less so than with men. Looking after yourself and dressing well can make up for a lot. Big generalisations, but I think they have some validity.
You can really only change yourself, and you have to adjust to the realities of the pool of people you’re interested in, or the person you’re with. Make sure you’re happy with any sacrifices you do make and look after yourself though, as you can be lonelier inside a relationship than alone.
It may seem like women are the ones holding the keys to open communication, but men are also very emotional and can be confusing and infuriating to women. It’s common for both people in a relationship to assume that the other person is picking up (and even actively ignoring) their signals, and it’s often not true. If you want to have an honest discussion though, bitterness will generally kill any chance of progression.
Women who like men with more autistic personality traits definitely exist, and you do have many things to offer. I know that’s easy for me to say, but that’s just my experience and that of quite a few men who are far less neurotypical than I am. Even if you don’t find someone who is romantically interested in you though, friendship with women is not a consolation prize.
The conditions generally don’t happen. Usually they lose interest soon. In non-one-to-one communication, in a group many-to-many one, I tend to end up on the side of the transaction diagram. Or, more rarely, it goes well that way but then the discussion turns highly technical and the group is always all-male, at least so far; which is sort of useless to get affection but at least tends to be interesting. And sometimes I accidentally manage to corner a prof or a seasoned PhD in their own field (oops).
Like chess. Predicting possibilities but adjusting to data as they come, pruning the decision tree, assigning guesstimated probabilities if I can not see for certain… lots of effort. LOTS of effort.
Definitely. Hard to find somebody who’d last, when there are so many other socializing competitors that are easier.
I remember what I talked about and where but not with whom. Rarely I recognize somebody I met earlier. Kind of troublesome for maintaining the state machines for multisession use. (“I don’t recognize you. Where did we met and what did we talk about?”)
They usually walk away soon. Others are easier to communicate with. Expected behavior, to be braced for.
Especially difficult when she keeps coming to either consult what to do or complain what he does or talk about how she worries he leaves. While you are trying to get closer yourself. Hurts as hell, got me to antidepressants after I had a minor breakdown induced by this, and I had to say in no uncertain terms I cannot handle this and I don’t want to know.
That’s why I wonder about the scoring metrics.
I think it is a fairly generic concept. But mostly used in this context. But you’re right here, and it can have lots of flavors.
Had to learn that the hard way. Blessed be Xanax.
Had to give up hope. An unexpected outlier still can happen but you won’t be cutting yourself on shards of broken hopes all the time.
When she gives all the attention to a laptop or phone screen and you are just next and get none at all for prolonged periods, it happens. A SSRI antidepressant takes the edge off quite well, though.
Stuff like that happens.
Another common confusing miscommunication.
Saw some cases. Enough to know they exist. But the supply/demand ratio is not favorable, and if you add the issues with having to talk with an engineer it is a further selector.
A friend tried to get me befriended with one hopeful such one. Looked nice, but long story short we got drinking in the office, the next thing I know she fucks him in the bathroom, I finish the bottle instead and cry myself to sleep, and then she didn’t show up anymore. Such memories aren’t exactly confidence-producing and painless.
On one side, yes. On the other, you then get to see how she gets boyfriended, engaged, married… and you end up with another scar on your heart, hopefully not too deep, and another wedding card in your collection… and see her once per blue moon if ever as families eat people.
Once in my whole life I felt loved and wanted… out of blue sky, outside of all predictions, sort of mediated by another friend. The closeness, the casual touches, her warm hands… her arms around my neck, her green eyes… precious few days spent together in Ireland, then I had to leave back home, to return again in few weeks. Shortly later the electronic communication shown timing characteristics that were unfavorable and the day I went over I got a sms on the way to the airport that she lost the feelings for me. That was almost 8 years ago and I can’t seem to forget appreciably; time doesn’t heal that well. Long rest of story short, telemetry aka gossips told me she later did the same to a few more guys, then returned to her country, went to another, met a guy from Africa and married him and moved there. I got the wedding photos sent; while in a way it was nice, Later I got a photo of their child. it was also painful as hell sharpened to a point, attached to a lego brick and stepped on. I know I should be happy for them. In a way I perhaps am but the pain obscures the details.
More memories… less intense, all unrequited, I did my best and failed anyway. Most long-distance. I learned a lot of GIS systems, by dreaming about the places and looking for data. Of people-tracking and network forensics, at level high enough to consult for a university project at Florida later. Before the age of street view, learned interpreting crude satellite imagery from US field manuals. All at the end useless.
Don’t want more pain. Don’t want to handle it anymore… want to hold a physics package of a fission device and burn my heart in an x-ray fire of a star core…
Afraid of more pain… panic-inducing afraid of being hurt yet again…
Okay, sleep now. The fucking charger will wait. The IGBT driver chip is replaced, the transistor is tested okay, the waveforms for the gate are within specs, hope the edge ringing doesn’t matter. The PFC is not tested as I don’t exactly understand it, will just run it on full power and see; it was not the part that failed anyway so should work. The cap bank has almost a kilojoule on almost a kilovolt; one bad touch and I am gone. Maybe won’t be such a loss… But a discharging jig goes there anyway…
Fuck memories… shouldn’t go there…
Yes.
Interpersonal communication is the most hardest job there is. It never ends. It is full of frustrations.
Well overswamped* by the rewards.
* totally not a word I made up just now.
Stop.
Earlier this year I finally concluded I couldn’t deal with my brain on its own, I got help (in my case a psychiatrist), and it is working. So a couple things:
