Let me give you a thought experiment. Bernie Madoff stole money off a lot of people (which is in no way btw to compare his victims with the victims of slavery). His kids almost certainly benefited, in terms of money, education, social contacts etc from the crime he committed and the money it generated. Google tells me that he had 3 grandchildren, whose privileged upbringing also most likely benefited, either directly (Bernie paid for stuff) or indirectly (their parents who benefited could pay for more stuff as a result) from his crimes. Ought they pay damages to the people Madoff ripped off? Ought their children as yet unborn, or their kids (who incidentally would have had 15 non-Bernie Madoff great, great grandparents)? I donât believe they ought, or that, even if they ought, you could reasonably think of a system whereby you could enforce such a liabilityâŚ
OK - people admit they got a leg up based on the sins of the past. This is the way it has always been since the first hominid took something from another one to better his group. Race certainly plays a part in it, especially in the US, but we have been discriminating against other âtribesâ before we were human.
And now what?
IMHO, I see too many people browbeating others for nothing they have personally done and carelessly sling around the âRâ word. This does nothing to cause introspection. Quite the opposite, it hardens their hearts against the idea and causes them to put up defenses.
At the same time I feel a lot of the problems we have in the present, people want to pin on the problems of the past. That does us no good in figuring out practical solutions for the here and now. The suggestion to take something from people and give it to others is an uphill battle that will never be won because most people fall prey to loss aversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
Time outâI never made any statement to that effect. White privilege is very real, but itâs only one kind of privilege. Other forms of privilege include (but are not limited to) economic circumstance, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, physical ability and mental health.
It seems to me that many of the people who get in a huff about the suggestion of âwhite privilegeâ are misunderstanding or misrepresenting what the term means. It doesnât mean âall white people are better off than all non-white people,â that would be ridiculous. It DOES mean that in most cases white people are statistically better off than non-white people in otherwise identical circumstances.
I hope that was an attempt at humor?
No, I am not saying that black Americans are (or are not) a systematically oppressed minority.
There, I answered your question sufficiently, did I not? 
You asked for a yes or no.
Seriously, though, youâre trying to browbeat me into accepting a false dichotomy, when I am trying to get you to see the occluded middle. Donât pretend you arenât trying to force me to use your paradigms.
I am saying that non-white Americans are far more likely to belong to a systematically oppressed minority than white Americans. This actually describes reality - that some blacks are highly privileged, but most are not, and that some whites are severely oppressed, but most are not oppressed to the degree that most non-whites are. This is not an ideological talking point based on bloodless statistics, itâs observable reality. And you are saying itâs not valid, because it doesnât fit your black/white dichotomy.
But I already answered that question. You simply donât like the framework I use.
Non-white Americans are far more likely to belong to a systematically oppressed minority than white Americans. Thatâs what I believe is true, and that is not the same as your belief that all white people always, inevitably have a better life than they would if they were black.
@Brainspore, sorry, I apologize. I thought in your earlier post you were saying that having a mixed race family made me less privileged than @albill, since he presumably doesnât have racist slogans painted on his sidewalk.
Have you looked up Madoffâs kids? Seen how theyâre doing?
Time out indeed. We are all friends here, and in the spirit of friendship might I suggest taking a beat?
(Hugs all around)
I reject your specious analogy â societal-level crimes differ from personal ones.
I wouldnât presume to know which of your families have âmoreâ privilege overallâlike I said, privilege comes in many forms. But I would say that the lack of racist slogans on his sidewalk does showcase one form of privilege denied to your family.
Good question. Of course, in general, white America canât get past the first step so it is kind of moot, isnât it? As seen as you bring up privilege, they trot out the fact of poor Americans or âI didnât get nothing from no oneâ and dig in.
First, people have to actually admit there is a problem and that racism in America isnât dead and, yes, even if youâre poor, if youâre white, youâre still going to be better off most of the time than a black person (or a Native American or ⌠) in the same position. Until people are willing to admit even that much, weâre not going anywhere.
Nice straw man you got there.
Huh. What do you know about the racial makeup of my family? Sure, Iâm a white heterosexual male. What is my spouse? Who did my family marry? You think there is no one of any minority status in my immediate family? Nice assumptions there.
For the record, my wifeâs family is Jewish. Well, the parts that are still alive since all the ones in the old country were murdered in pogroms at the hands of helpful Belarussians with the Nazis. Hell, my father-in-law changed his name in order to dodge the racism that he dealt with when he enlisted in the Air Force in WWII.
That said, in America in the 21st century, Jews can âpassâ so my wife largely has never had to deal with that level of shit because people donât look at her and whisper âJewâŚâ and the cops canât tell when they pull her over.
Additionally, my mother is queer, as is my daughter and, really, my wife. Of course, since my wife is bisexual, she can pass as straight as well and doesnât stand out unless she waves her freak flag high.
Straw man? Iâm objecting to a very specific claim you have repeatedly made, right on this site.
Itâs the only thing Iâm objecting to. I pretty much like everything else I see of you.
Iâm being a curmudgeon again, arenât I? I will come back tomorrow. Thanks!
As I pointed out way upthread, albill is not saying what you think heâs saying.
Can you see that now?
Iâve seen this from you before â you apparently see people who claim that white privilege matters as also claiming that itâs the only thing that matters, or at best, that it trumps everything else. Thatâs not what the concept means, nor what those who use it mean.
Youâre suggesting an absolute that I donât believe. EVERY black person is not worse off than EVERY white person of the same circumstances (class, role). Generally speaking, they are LIKELY to be MUCH worse off though.
This is why I told you to imagine your daughter and the circumstances sheâs going to deal with in life and then to imagine her doing the same but sheâs white and ask yourself whether it would be easier or harder in the latter circumstance. If it is easier, than clearly privilege exists and one generally has an easier time of it if white. You called me a racist for even suggesting this thought experiment though.
Thatâs my point. I think too many people are trying to place blame. Your average person I donât think is truly racist any more. Not like it was 50-60 years ago where they believed the ânegro race is inferiorâ.
Trying to place blame on people who see themselves as âbasically good peopleâ will close them off to anything else you have to say. You will see that time and again, not just in racism, but dealing with siblings, problems at work, etc. There are those who just want to play the blame game, and others who work toward finding a solution to the problem.
Saying âItâs your fault I am like this.â to people who have never met you will just not work with most people. And they will counter with negative things (i.e. Worldstar), pointing out people are responsible for their own actions, and justify any negative feelings they have, instead of doing any sort of self reflection, or do the math that their stereotypes and biases are only reflective of a small amount of the population. Simply put, most people donât have the cognitive skills to look at the big picture and come to an agreement with an otherwise valid point.
Personally I think we need to focus on the specific ares where we can ID racism today and work to fixing it. Making it a cause with specific problems and working towards clear goals is more inclusive. Make the SYSTEM the enemy that everyone can get behind changing. Positive moves in that direction is going to then be reflected more in their everyday interactions and views. Of course this wonât work for everyone, but it will alienate less moderates than some of the current tactics I have seen.
You can pay pal me the change for my 2 cents. YMMV.
Well, this gets into what your definition of racism is. I definitely run into people, often enough, in person and online, that are convinced, for example, that the black community is just full of lazy people looking for free stuff (hello, GOP presidential candidates) and the reason they donât do well in life is because of their shiftless ways. That seems like racism to meâŚ
There is a lot of unacknowledged racism out there. Sure, less people are interesting in keeping the blacks in âtheirâ part of town and only having them cook and clean but that is pretty far from declaring racism as dead or addressing the multi-generational legacy of the racism of the last few hundred years. The first step is to even get white people to admit that there might be something to this very discussion and it isnât simply some political game by politicians or lazy minorities to make whites feel guilty when they did nothing, of course, and never benefited from racism.
Iâm down to just handing those out, since no one here is responding to me anymore.
Peace out, dude bros.
Like the Danes were you mean?
Fucking Danes!
True story, my family on my motherâs side, who came over here around 1637, were from the region of England referred to historically as the âDanelaw.â Iâm sure I have Danish rapist ancestors as well as Saxons.
(Yes, I know not a perfect example, but you get the point Iâm stumbling towardsâŚ)
