Jimmy Wales tells "energy workers" that Wikipedia won't publish woo, "the work of lunatic charlatans isn't the equivalent of 'true scientific discourse'"

I haven’t looked at the Autism Speaks page.

I raised some issues with the Autism page, on its talk page, and on the npov talk page, and I saw one line that was insulting and incoherent, checked it against its sources, rewrote it, got reverted, asked why, got accused of edit warring, asked what that was about, got denounced for edit warring, asked what was going on, got baited and insulted and triggered by admins…

and I had already had people try to force me to out myself in other discussions of other topics…

and I had already seen people trying to establish policy that they could say bigoted and dehumanizing things on the talk pages, because that’s just airing their opinions, but other people could be banned for saying that there are bigoted and dehumanizing things, 'cause if we mention the amount of bigotry, that’s casting aspersions, and if we point to specific examples, that’s personal attacks, which are forbidden. apparently dehumanizing impersonal attacks are permitted…

and I had also see people trying to establish policy that trans people should be barred from trans-related discussions, because we couldn’t be neutral, but apparently anti-trans people would be neutral enough. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that cis people should be bared from cis-related discussions, or English-speaking people should be barred from English-related discussions, or the like…

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Nor does it at the quantum level. Quantum physics is very much not woo, as everyone who has worked with it can testify.

Strange, yes, and counterintuitive and built on some rather surrealistic mathematics. But rigidly and fanatically scientific and woo-averse all the same.

Actually I would say pseudo-science is precisely the point. It refers to any work which purports to be science, or scientifically grounded (this would include thousands upon thousands of accepted commericial products as well) , the idea being to protect people from fraud, which I think is very laudable. But when you go around slinging a term like ‘woo’, it doesn t really mean anything. I do have a difficult position, but I have no trouble dealing with it. But then again I haven t really outlined a position either, just my objection to the term ‘woo’.

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OK. that s interesting. I ll have to see if I can find that book. seems to based on idea of snake oil salesmanship, or basically con artistry. Still seems rather vague, and not altogether useful as a term though. It doesn t seem to specifically address the question of what should count as science though, it seems much more broad than that.

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This thread is giving off bad vibes.

 

It is totally harshing my mellow.

 

Discourse doesn’t seem to like the embedded time-stamp. Go to 

&t=2m19s

Off to align my chakras with some Wavy Gravy…

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When you order the Continental Breakfast, the Homeopathic TSA doesn’t dunk your luggage in a tub of water and then try to set the water on fire to see if you’re carrying a bomb.

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I vaguely calculated the population of the US to be 350m, estimated a 2% annual death rate for average age … 50 … then saw that according to that figure 1/10th of deaths annually are caused by the medics.

Bastards.

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Dude, you had me up till Wikipedia should do what it wants to do.

There is an article for homeopathy in Wikipedia, from that article:

[quote]Plausibility
The proposed mechanisms for homeopathy are precluded from having any effect by the laws of physics and physical chemistry.[15]
[/quote]

The only thing Jimmy Wales is asking is that they don’t say their particular brand of woo is proven when its not, nobody’s asking for research to stop. At least I’m not.

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Yep, I think that’s right, and why he used the term ‘woo’. If you’re pointing out the facts, as scientifically provable, that’s one thing. If you’re trying to create a funnel to bring potential customers in, that’s another.

My name is L Ron Hubbard and I heartily endorse this message!

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I am open to this, but will need to repeat the experiment several times before I’m sated, I mean satisfied. Depends on how hungry I am.

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I’m confused. We’re talking about the Autism Speaks page and yet you’ve not looked at it?

Look, there are problems with Wikipedia. But that doesn’t mean Jimmy Wales’s statement is wrong. You are still way off-topic.

I saw someone talking about theology and/or religion as “woo,” so I decided to mention the inconsistencies in how more influential and less influential religions get treated, the former are respected, the latter are denounced as heresies, and in that context, it seemed reasonable to mention other inconsistencies in how marginalized groups are treated…

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Sorry for the confusion, for some reason I thought you were the person I was originally talking to.

Religion is not the same thing as science, so, not sure why you’re all hung up on that.

He did, and won a Nobel prize for it. Then he decided that intelligence was
race-dependent, advocated eugenics to fix the problem (and regarded this as
the most important work of his life), and became a raving paranoid in his
dealings with media. He, for instance, taped interviews with reporters and
then sent them transcripts by registered mail. He saved everything he ever
wrote, including grocery lists. He even considered making journalists take
a quiz before he would speak to them. By the end of his life, he was so
estranged from his family that they learned of his death through the
newspaper.

He’s at least in a middle state, neither darkly wise nor rudely great.

Okay, you’re not gonna like me for this but: If that link is any indication of what editors at Wikipedia are disallowing, I’d argue they’re doing their job. The open letter is purposefully misleading and claim a lot of things that are highly exaggerated or simply aren’t true. Wikipedia is not a place of activism. If you don’t like something there are other outlets to voice your dislike. I’ll cover the misleading parts, and just so you know I’ve thoroughly read everything they link to (even the impossibly droll UN, DOJ and FDA pages).

The anti-vaccine sentiments of Autism Speaks’ founders have been well documented in the mainstream media. Several of Autism Speaks’ senior leaders have resigned or been fired after founders Bob and Suzanne Wright overruled Autism Speaks’ scientific leadership in order to advance the discredited idea that autism is the result of vaccinations.

They’ve also retracted those statements and now say the exact opposite, as I quoted previously. Misleading much?

Autism Speaks’ advertising depends on offensive and outdated rhetoric of fear and pity, presenting the lives of autistic people as tragic burdens on our families and society. In its advertising, Autism Speaks has compared being autistic to being kidnapped, dying of a natural disaster, having a fatal disease, and countless other inappropriate analogies.

Does it? That claim is extremely tenuous. Firstly they deceive by linking the 4 separate ideas separately, even though there are only two references.

The video they link to (under “tragic burdens” and “having a fatal disease”), if you actually watch the whole thing, actually makes an opposing point. The first half does include the negative perspectives they list but, this is supposed to be “the voice of autism” i.e. autism personified. The second half of the video goes on to smash those stereotypes by showing that parents of autistic children in no way see them as tragic burden or being ill. The point of the video is to smash the stereotypes that the open letter is actively fighting against.

The other page (linked under “kidnapped” & “natural disaster”) doesn’t use those words whatsoever. The part the letter is referring to is undoubtedly the opening, which includes the sentence: If three million children in America one day went missing – what would we as a country do?

But if you read it in context they’re not saying kids with autism have been kidnapped, they’re trying to phrase the idea in such a way that people without autistic children can understand the urgency of having to do something about the issue. Here’s the full opening.

This week is the week America will fully wake up to the autism crisis.

If three million children in America one day went missing – what would we as a country do?

If three million children in America one morning fell gravely ill – what would we as a country do?

We would call out the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. We’d call up every member of the National Guard. We’d use every piece of equipment ever made.

We’d leave no stone unturned.

Yet we’ve for the most part lost touch with three million American children, and as a nation we’ve done nothing.

We’ve let families split up, go broke and struggle through their days and years.

I won’t go extensively into the DOJ or FDA stuff, except to say that obviously the facility in question is pretty dodgy. The FDA page related to their electric shock equipment having been modified (to be stronger) above the level for which it was actually approved. The UN report on torture also says this about the facility:

although in 2011 the Commonwealth of Massachusetts‟ Department of Developmental Services (DDS) approved regulation changes that limited the use of Level III Aversive Interventions (including skin shock), this new regulation does still allow the use of electric shocks for those students who had an existing court-approved treatment plan as of September 1, 2011 (115 CMR 5.14). Under the revised regulations, only new students in Massachusetts are protected from Level III aversives, including electric shock or prolonged restraints.

Furthermore, a large part of the open letter’s rage is Autism Speaks supposed endorsement of the facility. The full extent of the endorsement is that they had a booth as a service provider at one of their fundraisers. Here is the flyer, with the relevant part highlighted.

Hardly a ringing endorsement.

The one thing the letter addresses that I entirely agree is problematic is that Autism Speaks does not have anyone with autism in their management or senior ranks. Both that and most of the other controversies listed in the open letter are covered on the Autism Speaks wiki page, so I’m not really sure what is supposedly being censored.

PS: I just want to say that I’m not trying to claim that Wikipedia is perfect in any way. trollies exist. Sexism exists. When 9/10 wikipedia editors are men you’re obviously going to get an unbalanced final product. All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t judge an entire site by the actions of a few asshole editors. A guy punched me once (*yeah - can you believe it!?! ME! I’m such an easy-going pacifist :stuck_out_tongue: *). Should I claim that all men are violent and reject any interaction with men in the future? I could but I’d be missing out on a lot of friendships that would enrich my life.

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It’s hard to keep straight. I still don’t get how homeopaths can deal with the fact that drinking a glass of tap water should immunize them from all communicable diseases simultaneously. If they really believed their first principles, then there’s simply no point in even developing new homeopathic treatments at all. How do they reconcile ever getting sick?

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Except, of course, TED can in no way do that, as they’re not the government (unless something really drastic has slipped under my radar). Actually, TED exercising something resembling quality control is one of the most favorable things I can say about them.

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What are you talking about? You asked for examples of anti-autistic hate groups. I named Autism Speaks. You asked for examples of how they are hate groups. I provided a link. I haven’t used this on the article. I have raised issues on the autism talk page, and have checked claims on the autism page against the academic citations already used on that page. [edit function bugs]

What on earth could “not [be] a place of activism”? Ni fraþja. Wikipedia is supposed to have certain standards of evidence and of neutrality, which should avoid presenting pseudoscience and pseudohistory as science or history.

I am judging the site by the actions of assholish admins, and by the inconsistent application of their standards of evidence [verifiability] and by the transformation of their standards of neutrality [neutral point of view] into most widely-published point of view.

If most of the sources are apologetic sources denouncing a given religion as heresy, then under the current interpretation, the articles get to denounce that religion as heresy. If many of the sources are hate literature denouncing trans folks, then they get equal weight with academic sources and, given the reliable sources policies, greater weight than trans literature. That also was an issue, with people citing hate-pieces from the Washington Times, to misname Chelsea Manning.