On classism and solidarity in oppression

[popobawa4u]

@Mindysan33

My point is that not all people are as freely able to participate in this in modern society.

If they don’t participate in this society, they most likely participate in one or more other societies.

@Mindysan33

We probably have more freedom to do that here and in other democracies, but depending on what you do, you are going to come up against real world consequences.

That’s the whole idea. There tends to be a trend with your writing of saying that institutionalized power having “real world consequences” is always a positive thing (in practical terms), while the actions of the average person having “real world consequences” is always a negative thing. Having real world consequences is the whole point of acting in this world, unless one expects that their actions have only symbolic value.

@Mindysan33

I honestly think your underestimating people’s ability to disentangle themselves from these structures of power and signification.

Not at all, I am very well aware of it. What seems problematic is people’s inability, or unwillingness, to create new, better structures of power and signification.

@Mindysan33

It’s not enough to say that “well, those people just made a choice”, because it assumes that people don’t realize it’s a choice, but that they did decide they’d give up too much by making the choice that might alienate everyone they know and love, or put them into physical danger. I find it very unempathetic on your part not to take that into consideration.

The lack of understanding of making real decisions about such things is not merely what I assume, please consider that this is overwhelmingly what people tell me. It is precisely empathetic to hope for people to see real, meaningful choices that they can make when they assert that they have no choice. I do think it’s better to empower people rather than accept people I care about needing to live like hostages. Alienation and physical harm are entirely negative motivations, and indulging them does not strike me as being in any way compassionate.

[Mindysan33]

@popobawa4u

saying that institutionalized power having “real world consequences” is always a positive thing

No, I am saying that they do have real consequences, and they can be good or bad, depending on who you are.

@popobawa4u

What seems problematic is people’s inability, or unwillingness, to create new, better structures of power and signification.

Not everyone has the same set of options.

@popobawa4u

indulging them does not strike me as being in any way compassionate.

We describe them to fight against them, and make things better for EVERYONE, not just the people we know.

[popobawa4u]

@Mindysan33

No, I am saying that they do have real consequences, and they can be good or bad, depending on who you are.

I’d say that it depends not upon who you are, but rather, what you do. I’d even go so far as to say that you “are” only what you do. Everything starts with self-mastery, and there isn’t anyone who can do it for you. Identity is a MacGuffin.

@Mindysan33

Not everyone has the same set of options.

Some of this is due to simple differences in constitution and circumstances, it is natural for these to differ.

@Mindysan33

We describe them to fight against them, and make things better for EVERYONE, not just the people we know.

Then you risk being quite imposing, because you can’t know what’s better for those who you don’t know. Rather than fighting “them”, this is how you become “them”. It doesn’t matter that you think you have a different identity if you simply replace one one-size-fits-all system with another. This is a matter of using the same structure with only different content. When the structures themselves are predicated upon iniquity, these improved values only help in the short term, to a limited extent. To do so fairly, this requires communication and direct involvement.