Maybe it’s because the term “click-bait” didn’t exist a few years ago, so now you have a phrase to describe a phenomenon that always existed?
Don’t underestimate the power of language to shape your perceptions.
2 Likes
Notwithstanding the well-known De Beers cartel, gem-quality diamonds are incredibly rare. De Beers’ control of supply may further magnify their rarity, but they would still be very rare without restricted supply. I mean, gold is much less rare than diamonds are, but it still seems to be quite expensive.
That’s a poor example. The price, especially currently, of rare wine (and scotch and champagne and cognac etc) has been rapidly inflated the last few decades by increased interest from Asia. In other words a significant reason why a Chatea Mouton-Rothschild costs what it does is because Chinese and Japanese people are just as willing to pay exorbitantly for it as westerns are. The Chinese are bigger factor in that these days, but the Japanese have been helping to drive the market for at least 20 years, and have been involved for much longer. The Japanese insanely expensive fruit thing is (as far as I know) uniquely Japanese, and is entirely culture bound. Its got its roots in the relative rarity of certain fruits and vegetables before the advent of international trade. Where the small amount of arable land (comparative to other non-island nations) made growing shit like Grapes absurdly expensive. It doesn’t necessarily make sense now as Japanese buyers will today buy the exact same melon (literally the exact same melon) from the farm around the block from me for thousands of dollars that I get for around 5 bucks. Even factoring in shipping charges its senseless.
Its a very interesting Japanese quirk. And also a troubling one. The same tendency Japan has to over pay for things that are relatively common and of not of especially spectacular quality is a significant contributor to over-fishing.
That’s interesting, that the value comes from such detailed care. Perhaps it’s it’s a confirmation bias, but it makes me think of bonzai grooming, tea ceremonies, sword making, and origami, where the value of the finished product / production ritual far outweighs some basic value of the ingredients or materials.This isn’t a particularly Japanese phenomenon, I suppose, just look at the price of artisanal pickles in Brooklyn. This collection of arts/crafts do have in common that the experience and specialized knowledge of the craftsperson, and the awareness of the detailed, exacting ritual and painstaking effort of the process actually add the value, analogous to how time adds value to wine.
1 Like
When you’re talking about Asian countries and expensive fruit — it’s important to understand to the reason why people are buying it. They aren’t just buying a “treat”. People from Asian cultures who are buying really expensive fruit are more often buying it as a gift - similar to flowers - one that has history, tradition, and symbolism attached.
Part of the reason why individual care is given to the fruit is because it then represents a more caring gift. “Here. I got you this, and it was tended carefully from seed for you.” The fruit is even packaged carefully - often in padding, boxed and even papered. That’s not to say that the prices aren’t steep - they can be outrageous - but the use is equivalent to a fine bottle of wine. A guest to his boss’ holiday party may bring a box of really fine apples.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/style/28iht-rluxfruit.html?_r=0
2 Likes
A couple of people have already noted that Diamonds (even jewelry grade ones) are not rare. Their price is largely a function of monopoly control and marketing.
But while Japanese grown produce of this sort might be a rarity; produce of this quality that sells in Japan for these prices certainly isn’t. I live in (and grew up in) an area where the economy is based in fishing and farming. I’ve got farmers living just down the street from me who sell small amounts of grapes, melons, apples, pears, berries, pumpkins, etc. to Japanese buyers that later sell in Japan for thousands of dollars an ounce. These buyers pay 3-10 times the market rate here in the US but the quality of the produce is the same as what I buy at or slightly above US supermarket prices. If visual perfection is the thing they’re selling on well there’s 35 acres of apples around the block from me where every 3rd one is visually perfect. A lot of these farmers want to sell larger volumes to these Japanese buyers but the guys won’t buy more than small amounts. Same thing happens with fish. Japanese buyers are really here to snap up whatever Giant Atlantic Tuna they can. But they’ll happily buy stuff that’s otherwise getting tossed out for exorbitant prices. Things like fish and lobster roe, various livers, less popular fish species. There are buyers out here who pick up strict amounts of any of the above (often things I could get by the trashcan full for free) for x dollars a pound and sell them in Japan for x hundreds of dollars an ounce. If these things were rare and simply un-desired here in the US these guys would be grabbing all they could while prices remain low, their insane prices would have some effect on the market of origin. Fisherman who are actually going broke would be making millions selling otherwise unwanted sea snails. But since they’re actually incredibly common the buyers are careful to buy and import very small amounts. They are careful to pay high enough above the market rate; and competing offers; to ensure their supply but no more than that. If they just bought as much as they could, and sold is as fast as they could before it went bad, they’d crater the market. They (and we I suppose) are being very careful about exploiting a very particular feature of Japanese culture. In an (honestly) predatory manner that probably has bigger negative effects here than there.
In happier news the increased Japanese tourism in the area is frankly welcome. Much friendlier and more polite than their American equivalent. And its nice to see people so genuinely excited about something other than cheap Levis.
2 Likes
Jesusfuck.
For everyone’s information: selling the first insert food here of the season/year is extremely common in Japan for everything from grapes to tuna. For an inexplicable reason the first whatevers go for stupidly high prices because “prestige”. Yes they check each idiotically expensive ‘specimen’ carefully, but wouldn’t you inspect 30 grapes for $5k?
This is the action version of teh interweb’s “First!”
Perhaps they are going to make wine out of the grapes and sell a drop of it 50 years later for a million$
Having worked on a farm in Japan, I can tell you there is an intense amount of labor that goes into growing apples. Flowers are individually hand-pollinated. Once the little apples form, they are culled to regulate the quantity and size of apples at harvest. Once they get a bit bigger, little paper bags are tied on, again, by hand, to prevent bugs and physical damage. Then the bags are removed shortly before harvesting to allow the apples to ripen. At picking time, they are carefully picked to ensure the stem remains in place, and the apples are carefully sorted by size for sale at market. Intense!
1 Like
And can we point out that this sort of gift giving is more about involving the recipient in a reciprocal relationship that will benefit the giver in the end. It is a style of doing business that we actively discourage in the US. (Though that doesn’t stop it.) It isn’t a measure of how much you love the person you are giving it too. It’s bait with a nasty hook.
2 Likes
What you’re talking about is called “guanxi” and gift giving is definitely a part of it. If someone offers you a gift expecting a favor of equal expected value, and the two don’t meet - it can take some time to balance the social budget.
1 Like
Quite frankly, I don’t think this has any correspondence with reality. Have you seen these things being sold in Japan for thousands per ounce? Really? What exactly are we talking about?
What’s visually perfect to you is highly unlikely to be visually perfect in the Japanese wedding-fruit market. Others have spoken about how fruit is individually wrapped while still on the tree, and even these fruits are unlikely to qualify for ceremonial use.
It sounds like you should start exporting this stuff to Japan yourself, since there seems to be billions to be made.
Well as I understand it the Asian interest in fruit as an important or impressive gift, particular in Japan, has its basis is rarity. You don’t have enough arable land to feed your populace even if every acre is devoted to the most calorically dense staple crop (rice in Asia historically). The comparatively few producers who are willing to devote acreage to “luxury” fruits need to command an appropriately high market price to continue to exist. So they can buy rather than grow their staple. Its expensive because its rare, and its desirable because its expensive. Possessing it becomes a mark of social standing, and in the case of gifts in Asia or Japan a mark of care, generosity, etc. And subsequently, as fruits become more available, a social obligation. And there are certain aspects of Asian culture and religion that fetishise or prize certain fruits so that helps factor so that feeds into it too. And with Japan in particular Japanese grown fruit are going to be harder to come by than those grown abroad. Even factoring in all of that the Japanese market for these things is bizarre. I could walk to a place where I could buy fruits a Japanese buyer wanted, but passed up on because bringing that kind of volume would affect the price for the market over all.
I played Harvest Moon and grew fruit. Shit’s hard to do.
Hiya. That would make sense - except for one slight problem: the same customs apply in mainland China. In fact, there fruit is a traditional Lunar New Year’s gift. On that occasion - fruit can safely given in offices - reciprocation is not required, and fruit is considered to take the place of lai see (red money envelopes). It’s only on other occasions when a single, private gift of an expensive fruit will create an obligation that must be observed.
I already provided two sources that both directly state, “The exceptional prices reflect exceptional methods used in growing the fruit.” (See my above links) Not all fruit of the same type is equally pricy in Asia. Specific fruits are handled with kid gloves from the moment they’re planted, and that’s the fruit that costs so very much. Anything that doesn’t meet the final inspections simply won’t make the cut.
In the case of the grapes for this story, many are grown, but only a select few meet the standards required to be sold at the prices demanded. Those standards include: “each grape must be over 20g and over 18% sugar. In addition, a special “premium class” exists which requires the grape to be over 30g and where the entire fruit bunch must weigh at least 700g.” So the “premium grade” grapes are artificially rarer (they’re the same grape), “In 2010, only six grapes qualified for premium status while in 2011, no grapes made the cut.” (source wiki, first post above)
As I explained, it’s because these items are being given as gifts (with social relevance and repercussion) that they are treated like fine gems - identified with measurements like cut and clarity. The market gives them artificial value.
My point is that there isn’t billions to be made. There is plenty of product that would qualify if you sent it to Japan, handled it in the required way etc. Japanese produce, where it’s prized, should still be priced a reasonable amount above the competition. But there is nothing rare about grapes, even perfectly handled, visually right, wedding appropriate grapes. There are thousands and thousands of them growing within walking distance of everyone reading this. Even in Japan, for every bunch like this how much is that farmer throwing out? Or selling at a non-mind numbing rate? A good portion of those would qualify in the real world. Even the very best grapes, or the very best Japanese grapes can only be so rare. And the price of the rarest most desirable ones should be in some way related to the price of grapes in general. So even if you moved all of the appropriate grapes into the Japanese “I am worth $5k” market, handled them right. Bent over backward to make them proper and good for wedding ceremonies, they wouldn’t be worth $5k. There would just be too many in the mix. The difference between the practical, real world, price of grapes and this $5k for 800g shit is cultural. It is weird, it is unique and it is interesting. Amd it is important. I also happen to think that it relates to the very real way that the Japanese market sort of fucks up our fisheries world wide.
The Japanese buyers that work in my home region are pretty careful about what they buy, how much they buy, and from whom. And like I said they’re mostly here for the Tuna. I’d like to turn up with trash cans full of fish liver and walk home with thousands of dollars. But frankly they won’t buy from me, and they would never buy that much or under those circumstances.
But you’re right to point out that it’s just anecdote I’ve got no way to back that up without throwing my own identity up here or market figures etc. And a good portion of that is things I’ve heard from a guy. We’re just shooting shit on the interwebernets, and I find it fun. I find this thing very interesting, and I’m glad your there to throw something else in the mix. I just don’t know that it’s as simple as either of us are making it out to be.
Almost no foreign-grown produce would qualify. Certainly not anything that is regularly sold in your typical North American supermarket.
Have you read any of the articles about these ceremonial fruits? Does your farmer up the block grow them the same way? Are the fruits culled and the vines stunted to ensure all resources go into one fruit? Are the shaded from sunburn?
You’re almost certainly right that they aren’t worth $5k. The problem, as @teapot has pointed out, is that the auction totals that grab so much foreign attention typically don’t reflect the average prices that these still very expensive goods typically sell for. The ¥156 million bluefin tuna? The restaurateur lost ¥155 million when he sold it as sushi in his restaurant. And the next year the first bluefin of the season sold for less than ¥7 million, when was still a big premium on what the average bluefin sells for.
Well I would argue that all of those requirements are similarly culture bound and modern. With the same motivation at their base. Originally these things were rare so, now they are culturally prized. Enough of x fruit are produced in y way to more than lower the price. Making the persistent high price unique, and outside the mechanic of usual market forces.
I always like to see more cultural context though. That’s some interesting stuff. That bit about fruit (presumably at the exclusion of other goods?) standing in for a monetary gift? I wonder does it super cede bribes? Historically speaking anyway? Seems like it would only work where fruit is cheaper or more available than the equivalent cash value. Or more socially valued.
We can just agree to disagree on this point.
Gifts between business partners in Asia aren’t looked at the same way as they are in the West. You may want to read the link I provided on guanxi. In Asia, not only is class going to determine your standing in a relationship, but also favor. Currying favor to get a desired outcome is, in some cases, expected.
Have you ever been to Japan? My guess is no.
There is “regular” fruit in Japan too you know… fruit that is the same price as you or I pay. This here photo has red grapes for 200 yen (less than $2) per punnet.
Then there’s “premium” fruit which is the kind you’d give as a gift and is available in the food section of a department store and usually comes boxed up. Here’s a picture of a $230 melon or the comparatively cheap $170 melon beside it. These grapes are both the “premium” fruit and come at a price premium as they are the first grapes of the season.
5 Likes
