I’m reminded of arguments made against dark skinned people being less than human.
I’m joking of course, but I can’t help be reminded either.
1 Like
I wonder how true this is. Are we to assume that the only consciousness that is valid/worthwhile is the type we can easily associate with.
I think we can safely assume that plants don’t have consciousness. The lack of a nervous system, much less a brain, kind of precludes it. Of course, there are those who believe in the paranormal and/or religious rather than the scientific and for some it’s very difficult to grasp how a biological machine like a plant can react in very specific ways to very specific stimuli without some sort of consciousness. Perhaps, a lack of understanding on their part is the reason we hear about so many people attributing consciousness to these interactions when in truth what is happening is the result of 3.4 billion years of biological evolution creating new and better instruction sets for unthinking biological machines which result in some very complex interactions.
Nice video. “I violated tomatoes!” Whenever I’m in the grocery aisle for processed tomatoes, canned, diced, crushed, paste, sauce, I think “Man, there sure are a lot of ways for a tomato to meet its end.”
My takeaway here is that fruit-bearing plants are all a bunch of kinky masochists.
3 Likes
OK, plants do not have our consciousness, never will, they’d need to stop being plants first. Since consciousness as understood by humans is a human concept, we’re not going to go far arguing about it.
But I get this knee jerk reaction to be a contrarian about it and note that self preservation must not be a necessity to consciousness since all lifeforms have it and this seems to be what is exhibited here.
I certainly wouldn’t say that the plant is screaming in pain, but I could at least imagine it trying to not die.
Back on the topic of consciousness, we could argue that the ability to think about our thoughts and experience the world as we do and have that be the gold standard for consciousness is a mistake we’ve made too many times before.
(I’ll gladly eat a tomato though, no getting around that)
People who study consciousness disagree. Most cant came to a point that they can decide where consciousness begins to such an extent that leading experts on the subject believe a rock may have a level of consciousness. Consciousness is not tied to a central nervous system except in the confines of your imagination.
Chickens don’t have our consciousness either… never will. They’d need to stop being chickens first.
You may be right but I don’t spend much time reading the work of paranormal researchers.
Is Sam Harris a paranormal researcher? Do you believe he places value in their research?
Not according to his bio. Do you have something to reference him saying plants or rocks have consciousness? I’d be really interested to know what a neuroscientist could tell us about the consciousness of things without neurons.
I’m looking for it now . It comes up in a religious debate. He is referencing other scientist’s work in that field rather than his own thoughts on the matter. I sincerely doubt however that he is referring to any paranormal investigators.
This might help you in your search http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2#paranormal
This is his blog response to criticisms. In it, he argues that we should remain open minded but “the fact that they haven’t been conclusively demonstrated in the lab is a very strong indication that they do not exist.”
Actually I was trying to point out that plants aren’t humans and that to expect them to be before we decide they have consciousness is a non starter argument.
Edit:
To be clear, I wrote:
While you’re helping, how about you find somewhere that an expert in the field supports your assertion that consciousness is exclusively tied to the nervous system?
You keep going back to the paranormal thing like it is a part of our conversation rather than the conversation in your head. Interesting.
Happy to help The Roots of Consciousness: Theory, The Biological Perspective
EDIT: Please note that the article linked discussing consciousness is by Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD. The actual experts are listed under the references section.
I’ll also include this easier to follow article by Neurology Expert Peter Pressman, M.D.
Understanding Consciousness With Science
Sorry about that. I won’t mention paranormal again. It’s just the shorthand term I tend to use when people discuss ideas based on belief or concurrence rather than fact and cause. Instead, I’ll call it new age mysticism when referring to the general idea that plants have consciousness. Or, if you have a preferred term, I’ll use that when replying to you. Whatever you like. It’s all the same to me.
Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD…Straight from Coast to Coast AM…
" Jeffrey has the distinction of holding a doctoral diploma in Parapsychology, "
“Yes, Art Bell’s guests are quite reputable scientists” -Bigfoot
ROFL
This is all part of the problem. You find the name of someone who actually supports your view in the article and then poo poo them because they were interviewed on a late night radio program. Try actually reading the article first and then make your comments. That article was the biological view on consciousness and does not represent Mishlove’s position but rather the one he argues against. Comprehension is important.
That article was simply a handy way of giving you a few dozen links to actual experts. If it’s contents seem dis-reputable to you try this one Understanding Consciousness With Science It’s probably easier for you to follow.
By the way, how is your search for Sam Harris saying plants or some such have consciousness?
EDIT: Just wanted to add that it turns out that Dr Michio Kaku is a regular guest on that radio program. Neil deGrasse Tyson has appeared on that program no less than four times. I suppose we can say that Kaku and Tyson are no longer credible in your view.
Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn’t have his PHD in “Parapsychology”. LOL!
I decided against reading the article once I read about the author’s PARANORMAL credentials, Mr.“I don’t spend much time reading the work of paranormal researchers”.
Who said that he did? From what I can tell, Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove may be the only doctoral level scientist who would agree with your viewpoint so you might not want to dismiss him so quickly. He’s going to be one of the few people who you’ll be able to cite as a source to support your ideas.
That’s very clear since the article was written by someone who supports your viewpoint, is from one of the better encyclopedias on differing views of the nature of consciousness, and is sourced from respected researchers in the fields of consciousness, biology, and neurology. However, since you can’t be bothered to read but can take the time to dismiss without first knowing what you are dismissing, you are on par with the rest of the people out there who think plants have consciousness … under-informed but ready to snatch on to the flimsiest of points to either support their view or dismiss the view of others. I find that attitude typical of the new age mysticism movement.
How is your search to prove your point coming? I know that offhandedly dismissing me takes time but did you find where Sam Harris agrees with you so you can back up your inferred claim?
I posted 2 links. Did you make it through the other? Should I get you a link to an easier to read article?
