I’m also a bit wary of this approach, because misused it can end up being a method for derailing and shutting down conversations itself.
“Educate yourself” can be a toxic trap when it ends up closing off thought and discussion, I have seen it used as shorthand for Agree or shut up
And it gets that way because people think “I know about this topic and I think X,Y and Z. therefore, the sign of someone having educated themseves in this topic, is using all the correct jargon, and holding these opinions”
The possibility of someone else knowing what they are talking about and not agreeing in full is not even considered.
Yes, there’s something to this.
BUT! There’s also a reason why this can be annoying, And its just that, sometimes, we find ourselves just a bit too eager to get included in a conversation even though we can’t add to it, Usually, people try to make a point about how the uninitiated understand things and its all they can say because they themselves are uninitiated, and they get confused because they are told their opinion adds nothing to the conversation, and sometimes they get defensive, which leads to derailment.
I find it easier to lurk for a while before jumping in to a topic, especially about gender, I’ll admit I don’t get it, I’m all for fair treatment of humans and ending discrimination, but there is just so much that is foreign to my experience. In that sense, this comic is aimed right at me. I do realize though, that precisely because I don’t understand I can’t contribute. If I lurk, its mostly to try to get a sense of what smarter people than me have already figured out.
Maybe one day, I’ll have something useful to contribute.
Right now, the most I can do is call out trollies and like a few comments and maybe ask for more info on something I find interesting.
I think that’s a big part of it, right there. If what you’re doing is having a private discussion, then you’re under no means obligated to let anyone else join in, let alone explain anything to them- But if what you’re doing is fighting for equal rights or social acceptance, then explaining things to the general public is pretty much your entire job.
And yes, one of the big problems with modern media is that it is by nature open to anyone who shows up. Perhaps what would be more useful than “how not to derail conversations” would be a primer on how to tell if you’re welcome in a conversation in the first place.
Yeah, as I said in my previous post, there may be some issue (especially with conversations that happen online and over social media) blurring the lines between what’s a conversation of between “experts”* and more open conversations and general advocacy.
And honestly the lmgtfy.com kind of imagery of the search boxes may be bothering me more than it should. I find lmgtfy.com funny, and understand the very satisfying emotional venting feeling using it creates, but I’ve never been under the impression I wasn’t being rude when sending a lmgtfy.com link to someone. It gives me the impression the comic is condoning rudeness if someone hasn’t done their homework.
But really this isn’t just an issue for trans rights. I remember having a dozen similar experiences back in the 90s when I was a young, dorky but very inexperienced computer nerd trying to get Linux working on my machine. Any time I had a problem it usually ended in someone in a IRC channel or forum somewhere refusing to help or engage because I didn’t have the right kind of knowledge, or wasn’t educating myself properly.
*For lack of a better term. Basically anyone who is already up-to-speed on everything under discussion.
The problem I have with the book analogy is you won’t deeply offend someone if you get some aspect of a book wrong (unless it’s a religious text perhaps.) If I refer to Harry Potter as being a character in Lord Of The Rings I will look silly and people will laugh, if I refer to a trans person as “he” or “she” incorrectly it’s like saying “negro” or “colored” and people will think I’m ignorant in a much more sinister way.
I get the impression that even the trans community is still working out the terminology, so I typically won’t get involved in these kinds of conversations anyway. Sometimes the best way to be respectful is to be silent.
You can just reply to a post and ad an @ to the front of a name to call their attention to this post like so: @mumblej
Like say, “The bible”?
Yeah, that’s always goes well. If you want people to know what you know so badly, you proselytize right? But if somebody is already having a conversation about this most important topic, its not a sign that they don’t think its important if they don’t stop in the middle of having said important conversation on a topic that is most dear to them and begin another one with you personally.
This would be making the conversation about you, and most certainly a derail.
So do you initiate conversations on this topic or do you hijack other conversations to make your point?
Ah a topic near and dear to my heart!
Not every conversation is about convincing people, in fact, some conversations are for working things out.
Some conversations are only useful for blowing off steam with like minded individuals before bravely going out and teaching the world to be more tolerant.
Some conversations do try to influence public opinion, but they are not won by who is more polite, they are won by who is more persuasive, and who persuades more people.
Other fun moves (not to derail): “Hey, you’re X,” says your boss. “Well, Alex is X too, so you two should get together.” Bonus points if said in front of colleagues who have no idea either you or Alex are X. What follows is . . . a conversation wherein you explain in patient detail X-dom. See how it came around there?
The transgender field has the unenviable problem of being complex, with many different backgrounds and outcomes. This leads to its own jargon to describe all the concepts it encapsulates, making it sound even harder to grasp, as if upending the classic notions of gender wasn’t difficult enough to begin with.
Homosexuality is much easier to understand: you’re attracted to people of the same gender. Not much more needs to be said.
But being transgender has a lot more to do with finding acceptance both with oneself and with society over the rigid concepts of gender, and that’s without even mentioning sexual attraction. Society typically demands 100% gender purity one way or the other, but nature has other ideas. Trying to describe the various ways this rigidity is inadequate is both hard to convey and hard to swallow especially when you have to deal with the fears associated with it and the hate that emerges out of those fears.
Failing to consider the conversational desires of others is the root of so much rudeness. There’s the folk who only talk about themselves; or tell long, boring stories; or talk over others; or when a pair of people geek out over a shared interest in a small group and monopolize the conversation.
Sometimes you’re the odd man out in a conversation, and just have to sit quietly, and it sucks, but that’s life. Sometimes you really want to have a particular conversation but somebody shifted the topic away, or it wouldn’t be interesting to enough participants, and that sucks. Sometimes you want to have a conversation on a high level with a person, but they’re stuck at the basics, and that sucks.
Asking basic questions or refusing to answer them can both be rude, depending on the situation. If you’re a good conversationalist, you’ll know when basic questions are in or out of order (and when they deserve answers). If social situations give you a little trouble, this comic is a reminder that if a question only benefits you, sometimes you should wait to ask it.
And each kind relies on different language! Rousing, exclusive rhetoric for firing up the troops, inclusive emotional appeals for building sympathy, passionate yet rational arguments for reaching concensus, and for gaining converts, either compassionate and carefully presented logic or outright emotional manipulation- Whichever your morals allow ;).
Personally, I’d love if more people understood that.
Just as not all T folk want/need medical help, many do, even without reality shows. Its an interesting theory to speculate on a gender norm revolution that would obviate the need. It would be nice to remove all things medical from LGBT; but I find that desire threatening and worry about younger folks who deeply want to medically transition (HRT is medical). I say this a transwoman who is not especially femme, who didn’t want to play with dolls, but who is very happy being female, physically, as much as I can be. Also, understand that anyone transitioning needs time, some more than others. The popular culture wants things to be smooth and fast – as a proof of naturalness. It does not work that way. Imposing that standard has been proven dangerous, even deadly.
I’m on your side for a different reason. Gender and race are extremely contentious issues and the matter is far from settled on even basic aspects of these topics. When someone basically says “go google the topic until you agree with me on everything,” they’re being stupid and lazy themselves, as well as intellectually dishonest. If I go in blind and start googling trans issues and descend deep into whatever click-hole I end up at, there’s no reason to assume that when I come back from “educating” myself that I’ll be any closer to agreeing with or even understanding any given trans person’s position on a given topic.
Not quite, as pictured in the comic it is a random passer by interrupting a conversation two people are having to interject questions.
That is kind of uncool.
On the other hand, criticizing the earlier BB article “how to talk about Caitlyn Jenner without being an asshole” is completely germane (mostly, it was TL;DR) because the whole point of that is to reach outsiders.
If two people are having an inside baseball conversation because they are baseball fans, they are in no way obligated to stop that conversation and explain baseball to you because you just walked by and were suddenly curious.
Basically, unless it is an explicit effort to educate “the unwashed masses”, everyone needs to just go about their damn business. Who cares. This does not affect you. Move along.
I think at least some of it is a holdover from orientation or non-conforming gender presentation being classified as a mental disorder. At least the AMA no longer lists either of these as mental disorders, but I think there’s a lot of people that still see LGBTQ as suspect in this way. (Even some of those in the medical field, unfortunately.)
I also have somewhat mixed feelings about transitioning being offered as a solution to all gender dysphiria, if only because it so strongly reinforces both the binary gender model and gender expression. For some of us, we can figure out that we don’t really fit with the gender we’re assumed to have at birth, but if the medical solution offered is to make us into yet another model which we don’t fit, it’s not much of a solution. (Besides, I’m actually happy with the my OEM parts, even if they don’t always conform to how I’m presenting at the time. I just don’t possess the same view of them as most people with these parts.)
A lot of my younger friends who are non-gender conforming don’t really see transitioning as right for them. I’ve actually learned a lot about myself from conversations with them. I’m not sure where I’d be if I had sought a medical solution earlier in my life for my concerns, but I’m glad that my friends helped me figure it out.
I have been verbally abused, spat on, attacked ten metres away from a busy major road on a sunny summers day, had bricks thrown at my windows, death threats posted through my door, enough attempts to break into my house that I used to sleep with a large spanner under my pillow. this lasted for a year (OK, 363 days) before I escaped, I was advised to move away by the police who felt that they couldn’t stop my abusers before they did kill me. I still have PTSD and am a very light sleeper ten years later.
What more needs to happen to me, or the many other trans people who experience similar, before asking you to read a 1000 word document doesn’t make me too sensitive?
As for “Treat people the way you’d like to be treated”, that can be interperated in many negative ways. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are homo/transphobes who would justify their actions as what they would like to happen to them if they stopped being heterosexual and cisgender.
And this is exactly why we need these sorts of conversations and why this article is so important. No one should have to go through that shit. No one. It should unacceptable to treat anyone this way but it’s still common for many transpeople today.
I’m sorry. Have a hug from me. Other than point people in the direction of articles like this, and calling out shitty behavior, I wish I could do more to fix the world. Because the more I look at it, the more it seems it’s a broken place.
