Oooooooooookay.
So, what kind of rock do you live under? Is it igneous?
What kind of non sequitor is that? No one is creating a barrier?! No one is expecting that every one is going to agree before stuff gets done.
It would just be nice, for once, to have privilege mentioned without a bunch of whiny #notallwhatevers showing up to decry that #notallwhatevers don’t have it/have it worse.
That’s not the point,
The point is to get people to realized that they been lied to by the media, the fact that Racist Sexist bigots runs our government and industries to make it harder for intersectionality to actually happen, that their nation was founded on land that were stolen from the natives through force and trickery, and that United States of America is created with WHITE CIS STRAIGHT MALES AS A HIGH PRIORITY OVER ANYTHING ELSE.
The point is to Hammer that point in as much as possible to put pressure on those who REFUSE TO GIVE UP POWER over EVERYONE.
Let me tell you that there is a possibility White Cis Male Elites are Lobbying to BRING BACK SLAVERY THROUGH PRISON LABOR.
Hey, not all white cis male elites.
No, but they did have to convince a lot of men to support them in their struggle for the right to vote. A big chunk of which involved convincing men that their privilege of voting, which was denied to women, was actually a problem.
Because everything depends on convincing enough of those “random ignorant people” to act, because the “intelligent people in power” are the enemy.
EDIT: In that last sentence, “enough” is an important word. I do not know how many qualifies as “enough”. It can’t be all, because no matter how good a case we lay out and how well we organize, some people are going to decide they prefer a world of blood and iron, will fly their loser flags, wear white hoods, and so on – and this has an important consequence that we can’t live in terror of offending some such people.
And also I, like many others, have learned more than once that I was in the wrong, because someone I cared for or respected got angry at me. Sometimes telling people that they’re being assholes is exactly what you need to say to get them to realize they’re being assholes, and that they need to stop.
I’m sorry. I was naive. I thought the point was to try to equalize opportunities as much as possible for everyone, ensure everyone has equal rights and that everyone is treated equally. I didn’t realize the goal was really to make everyone learn and accept history or to acknowledge bigots exist. Well problem solved. We can just stick that in some textbooks and call it a day.
And they didn’t go about it by first getting every man to admit that women have been oppressed. Because that would have been stupid and a huge waste of time. Nor did they frame their arguments by saying “men have oppressed us” because that would have met with the same backlash that “white privilege” gets.
I think we might be arguing tactics here though. If people are constantly saying “not all white people” whenever people bring up the idea of white privilege, maybe, just maybe, the more effective thing to do in order to get the conversation moving forward is to change the fucking term.
Apparently I was too subtle.
The conversation can’t go forward when you let racists set the term of the debate.
No sorry! I accidentally left out the reply quote which was to Thebarton_Gamer so it looked like I was responding to you. Sometimes I really miss threaded conversations.
Ahh I think this might be the heart of the problem. A good number of the people who hate the term white privilege are potential supporters of the equal rights movement. Alienating them is counterproductive.
I’ve been scrolling up and down this thread trying to figure out what these other terms are. I’m not calling BS on you, just trying to figure it out. I will admit that “white privilege” is imperfect, but I wouldn’t call it “cringeworthy”, particularly since it may have the desired effect of making caucasians question the way our world works.
So is Louis
As I said, earlier in the thread, I used to be in a socialist group that argued, and still does, against the use of the concept of “white privilege”; because such an argument would alienate a lot of white people. At the time, and now, I most often see the concept advanced by activists who are people of color, and I think rejecting the argument meant we alienated a lot of people of color.
Assuming for the moment that both are true (though I seriously doubt the former is as severe a problem as it’s made out to be), why should we be more concerned to avoid alienating white people than to avoid alienating people of color?
And what do you do if most of the people saying notallwhitepeople are precisely the ones you need to convince that, indeed, allwhitepeople?
And in the case of women getting the right to vote, black people got the right to vote too. But women and black people aren’t valued by society as much as white males yet. And its not always laws getting in the way, its perceptions and traditions and powerful people who have learned to game the system.
Look, maybe it is about difference in tactics, but it just seems to me part of the white privilege were talking about here, is to spare the feelings of white people who are unaware the role they play in maintaining the status quo for fear of alienating them from the cause. Even though they are already alienated.
Can people dismantle a system they do not see exists? I think you can easily do more damage if you don’t know what you are up against.
What about the people who do get it? Because I tend to see that everytime this comes up, more and more people do, not all, but like you said, we don’t need all.
Some people will never get it, they’ll either do good on their own or fight the change all the way.
I even gave examples, and I am sure there are others. When the laws don’t favor any one group, but they do in practice, why not simply call it “bias”? Or “white bias”, if that targets it better for you. There might not be any superior power issuing actual privileges, (no group is actually “superior” to do this) but groups of people can certainly be biased against others, or simply biased towards their own kind. So if I wanted people to question how their world works - I always do - I try to be as accurate as I can.
Sigh
I’m disappointed in this Jacobin article, but it’s relevant: Let Them Eat Privilege
Another thing that you should be disappointed in, how Privilege became a meme.
I’m actually more disappointed that Know Your Meme had a more sophisticated analysis of the concept of privilege than Jacobin Magazine.
This applies incredibly well to Brazil too.
Ya know, the whole “white privilege” thing is starting to sound an awful lot like the original sin. Doesn’t matter who, where or when you are born, if you are a white male, you are going to burn in hell.
It actually depends on heritage and location actually; it’s not their fault that they benefits from racism, but the fault of those who committed those racist crimes that they benefit from.
I don’t think bias gets the right connotations across, personally.
Let’s assume I’m in the oppressive class for a moment (easy to do, see my list of bona fides earlier in the thread) This phrasing makes it sound like I’m actively (if subconciously) working towards this bias. If I’m disinclined to believe the premise we’re talking about it becomes very easy for me show that I’m not, in fact, biased against black people. So there must not be a problem.
So if we’re going to bias, we’ve almost always got to preface it something that shows we’re not talking about individual bias, but a bias of the system to treat people differently based on various factors and in which direction that bias is leaning. “Systemic racial bias in favor of white people,” “systemic gender bias in favor of males,” “systemic ability bias in favor of the able-bodied.” (I’m sure my terminology on that last one is probably offensive to someone, please correct me if so)
Or I can ditch 6 of the 8 words and say: “Male privilege,” “white privilege,” “ability privilege.”
I still think the word privilege is too loaded and starts off as an attack. It will always lead to the same pushback and fighting you see here.
That is why I suggest “gratitude” or “gratefulness”, e.g. consider all the advantages you have and remember to be thankful for all the things you have that others in other situations may not. It is not an attack, implied or direct, but a reminder to be mindful of, and appreciate, all the things you are born with. The bedrock of empathy for other humans.
