I think a lot of where folks place themselves has to do with what is around them, rather than what they actually have/need. I work for a start up so am cash poor these days but, other than my house, basically debt free. What we don’t have, compared to folks around us, is money for fancy vacations or fancy cars (a 2007 Honda Pilot with 100K+ miles and a used 1990ish Mercedes aren’t exactly turning heads around here!) or private sports coaches. I understand the occasional rush of envy (yes, sure, I’d like a Tesla), but we long ago lashed ourselves to the mast on this point and operate from one basic principle when it comes to this stuff:
“Don’t spend money you don’t have, on things you don’t need, to impress people you don’t like.”
To be fair, class is really contextual, yeah? Depending on where you are, $400,000 is going to buy you much less lifestyle than in other places. Of course, silicon valley pay (in tech, at least) tends to be much higher than in other places.
Drives me nuts when people bitch about people who make more money than anyone they or I know being unfairly taxed. I try calmly explain no it’s fair. Bill gates and I both pay the same taxes on the first 10 grand, 50 grand and so on. If I were to make 10 million I’d pay the same taxes on that 10 mil as bill does on his first 10 million (assuming we both use accountants who know what they’re doing… and that’s where shit gets unfair IMO and is a whole nother convo).
Moreover, it’s not so much about money as social position. England knows this - they’ve always had impoverished barons looking for money to marry. Here in the US we think we’re a “classless society,” so even the richest point-x-percent still consider themselves middle class. So do most of the poor.
But we’re hard at work setting up a real aristocracy right now, with permanent wealth and privileges. I wonder if we’ll give them old-fashioned titles in the new feudalism? But that would be an admission democracy isn’t working…
Hardly anyone ever calls or considers themselves to be “upper class,” at least in public. During my college days I was once in Bermuda for a charity-related project, and found myself at a reception at the former Premier’s mansion. (A Premier is the head of government on the island, similar to prime minister). In conversation I heard her say that she always considered herself to be “upper middle class.” And I guess her position was at least somewhat understandable, being a mere millionaire on an island with no shortage of billionaires.
I somewhat agree. We’ve never had a hard and fast class system like in the UK. I think it’s partially about social position, partially about income, and partially about culture. Like we have distinct class cultures in America more than we have hard and fast class castes (if that makes sense). Our class system also has the added complicating factor of race, so often (historically) you’d have distinct white and black working class cultures (with a good deal of overlap). But we also have a thing where the middle and upper classes love to embrace the traits and culture of the lower classes (mass culture) and make it their own. I could probably do a whole dissertation on that fact alone! Maybe a book one day!
Yeah. We’ve pretty much eliminated social mobility for future generations at this point, I think, unless we do something pretty quick that’s going to continue to harden into a class system of old. But that’s a feature of neo-liberalism, not a bug, I’d argue.
This really isn’t new or shocking. You can find studies going back decades that show about two thirds of people consider themselves “Middle Class” just like three quarters or more of people swear they are “better than average” drivers.
Few wealthy people consider themselves wealthy or at least are not willing to call themselves such to pollsters and people in general and few people others might call “poor” call themselves “poor”.
Self evaluation and self-reporting are never highly valued for statistical accuracy. Or much of anything else: “No way am I drunk man” “I drive better when I am stoned” are inherently invalid claims on the face of them.
You tend to evaluate your financial well being by surroundings. If everyone around you has a BMW, a country club membership and a boat slip instead of a back yard and hangs out as the Yacht Club, that’s “middle class” for those people.
I mean, even the clever accountant doesn’t come into it. All the accountant does is reduce the amount of money you’re being taxed on, not the amount that he’s being taxed for the money.
Of course the way that Bill does get around to it ties into my second part, capital gains is damned cheap compared to real income
If you took that salary and moved nearly anywhere else in the US, you’d be considered very wealthy and could live very comfortably. In the Silicon Valley area, you’re not really living large on income like that. The cost of living in the much of the SF Bay Area area is insane. Housing, transportation, insurance, food, taxes – it’s all really high compared to most other places.
(Now I’m not saying you’d live like a pauper with an income like that, but you’re hardly living like a Rockefeller either.)
Housing seems a little high, but then I live in Toronto, where the average home goes for over a million now.
What are the rates on the rest? Why is food more expensive there? (Food in Quebec is so cheap we actually wait to do grocery shopping on road trips until we get to Montreal!)
I grew up in a family which I consider to be middle class, but as I started working full-time myself, in the IT sector, I also started considering myself to belong to the working class. I feel so much at home here, that the day my income can manage to stay above US$400000 even when riding the currency rollercoaster, I will still consider myself “working class”.
So what class you belong to doesn’t have to correlate much with income. In fact, it correlates more to what habits you spend your income (and any credit you may have) on, so yeah, ain’t nuthin’ but a materialism 'thang.
Obviously, if I end up affording upper class stuff, I’ll probably buy them, and use them for working class activities. (Yes, that means that if I can afford a Rolls Royce, I can obviously afford to fit it with bull bars, a roof rack, and a tow bar!)
Sales tax is in the 9% range most places. Gas is very expensive relative to most of the US. There’s also state income taxes in addition to federal. Property costs are extremely high and in many places property taxes are also very high. Restaurants in general charge more, and groceries are more expensive. I am assuming it’s in part because transportation costs are higher due to high petrol taxes but I’ve never really thought about it much (beyond being in other places astounded at how much cheaper everything is).
