I believe you meant ‘less worse’.
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Going to work outside of the US works, too. US taxable income? $0. Student loan payment on income dependent plan? $0. Getting to screw it to the capitalists in the US: Priceless.
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I’ve considered this though in my case they’d more than likely harass my family so there’s not much i can do about it.
If the cops finally arrested the mobsters who were extorting protection money from me, I wouldn’t continue to pay them anyway.
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choice and compulsion look quite different from the catbirds seat.
You don’t know either. Yet you prejudge? See that bit at the bottom.
You ridicule her as an individual as she stands in solidarity ALL YOU LIKE. It’s very kind of you and not at all just changing the subject!!
I have to assume you’re driving trollies if you think someone who comes out of todays high schools has any idea what an ROI is. We’ve failed them, OF COURSE ITS THEIR FAULT, otherwise… it’s ours.
Keep punching up.
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This was before 2008. 
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recognising the mistake made in ALLOWING THE CREATION OF THAT PART is on you and me, today.
We can shame and tut all we like, or we can recognize we’ve allowed a bunch of us to get screwed over - and it’s not really a mark of our personal superiority that we were not, because a historical perspective recognizes that next time it could be any one of us.
A bad day at the health lottery, an unplanned accident, a incident with unbridled angry armed authority… any of those things sets any one of us redshirts on the other side of that line that we’ve drawn to feel superior - and for no other reason.
The human ego is awful sometimes. I’m leaving this conversation before I see more ugliness disguised as concern. Not all you GF, but I think you’re talking down quite a bit here - and you can’t talk down AND have solidarity at the same time.
I hope everyones luck holds!
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(thanks for the tip, @One_Brown_Mouse)
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IMO (and it’s just an opinion), solidarity does not preclude criticism of what the most influential members of a movement have to say, even members I mostly agree with and believe have the best intentions.
I do believe we need to dismantle the debt economy. I do believe (tax funded) student debt forgiveness should pave the way for heavily subsidized higher ed. But just wiping out a segment of the economy as though it isn’t connected to the rest of it will have unintended consequences. It has to be dismantled, not simply blown away. I’m sorry if in saying so I seem to be talking down to anyone, but it’s real harm we can avoid. I know Cory and many others have shown a lot of contempt for economists, and arguably the field has earned some of that contempt. But ignoring everything basic econ tells us because some in the field aided the elites in fucking the rest of us over is going to backfire and hurt us more than them.
It’s not an either/or proposition. There are other options beside simply deleting the debt and doing nothing at all. It can be paid off with tax revenue from the wealthy if they’re forced to pay their fair share.
If my tone has closed ears, then I am sorry. I do have a problem of arguing by lecturing. But I would ask that people still at least consider the message even if they’re put off by my delivery.
By saying that “government payment of tuition only helps the people who get a degree at the expense of others who don’t who then have to help pay for it,” there’s too much emphasis on individual cases, and not enough emphasis on the benefits to society of an educated populace. Even the people who pay for it without getting a direct benefit get the benefits of an educated populace. At least this should be the theory, and government and universities should be working together to make it really worthwhile (to everyone) for someone to get a degree in something useful. Getting a degree in puppetry may seem frivolous, but people do like to be entertained. Perhaps some of these people go on to write for TV, do kids’ birthday parties, whatever. My point is we should look more at the overall societal benefits, rather than individual cases.
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Good luck selling that.
Even my dad doing something as concretely beneficial as suggesting better anti-erosion farm practices to farmers got occasional push back, on an individual level. And those people vote, so it has to be sold to them.
And no one here wants to here this, but because academia is considered by the town part of town-and-gown to be culturally out of touch, they aren’t going to trust that the university system will take into account their best interests. You’re saying, give me your tax dollars, so we can tell you what a terrible person you are by people who, unlike you, have well paying jobs for life, but trust us, it’s for your own good, both economically and culturally. Really think anyone’s going to buying that?
I mean, broadly I agree, but until we stop pitching college=the good life and everyone else=swine (“do good in school, you don’t want to end up like that guy”), it’s a pretty tough sell.
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I agree completely; it’s just one reason the world stinks.
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I appreciate what you’re saying but I don’t think taxpayers should be on the hook to provide a puppetry degree so a person can then be employed as an entertainer at kids’ birthday parties. Meanwhile, someone who has the desire to learn a skill to help with public infrastructure (engineering, welding, etc) but doesn’t have the help to pay for it is out of luck.
Screw people that think that those that don’t go to college are any less intelligent or capable.
There’s some level of discrimination toward those that have not pursued a higher education. They automatically make less money than their peers with diplomas and they may be skipped over for promotions or opportunities for advancement over those that have degrees, regardless of experience, knowledge, or skill.
There are many people without degrees that have gone on to create successful businesses. And mind you i’m not advocating for skipping higher education, i’m merely saying that there are many paths to success and people should be judged by what they are capable of vs what some expensive piece of paper says.
However if i had a kid i would advocate for them to pursue a degree because i feel like there’s valuable knowledge and experience to be gained from it. But regardless of what they went on to do i would be proud if they were giving it their all.
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Here is the problem with that line of reasoning. There’s no easy way to predict which people with what skill sets are going to best benefit society. That puppeteer (shit, now I have that song stuck in my head) might eventually build an enterprise that creates a new popular entertainment niche, or becomes an important step in art history that isn’t immediately lucrative, or hits on an idea that micro-revolutionizes education which doesn’t make much money but produces social capital in the form of educational gains for subsequent generations.
Even if there was a way to predict what career paths would be most valuable to society, they’ll change as the number of people going into them ebb and wane. Look at nursing in the US, where a shortage led to a push for more nursing students which let to a glut and a lot of unemployed graduates with debt. Even if the agencies charged with choosing what to fund defy all precedent and hit that moving target in a timely fashion, the lag in shifting job markets means they have to correctly predict where the target will be in the future to choose well now. Or worse still, we could leave it up to politicians so conservatives can gut the humanities and health care every time they wedge into power. And even a lot of four-year degrees in things like business or CS or communications are more about preparing people for a lifetime of learning than teaching them skills directly applicable to the jobs they’re likeliest to fill.
The truth is that society serves it’s own collective interests best by comprehensively funding education. A whole educated populace is more equipped for the future than trying to play career-choice Whack-A-Mole, and pays for itself many times over if it’s allowed to instead of being crushed under debt to pad the pockets of the idle rich.
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See: Henson, Jim
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Dude, she followed her bliss. That’s all that matters, and it entitles her to a well paying job. Get with the program.
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How many other puppeteers can you name?
Somewhere Jim Henson is rolling over in his grave. I’m sure you derisively look at people getting “non-lucrative” degrees with disdain that they are wasting their lives. But if someone is passionate about what they love then who are you to tell them they won’t get anywhere? Also it has been shown that cities that invest more into the arts reduce crime, increase education, civic engagement, etc. But hey, screw that, let’s just focus on degrees for doctors and lawyers. Everyone else is a fool.
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