Teachers describe the terrible state of American education

[Hyphen]

If education is subjective, then satisfaction is even more so. People [believe][1] the same wine is better if they have to pay a higher price for it.

I agree with you on testing scores, but the political reality that we live in is that schools live and died by testing.

I would love to see a world where every school has the freedom to innovate and try new things. But we need to make a commitment to try and help every child, not just a few.
[1]: http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/handle/37328

[aikimo]

@Hyphen

Welcome to science… particular science involving people. It’s crazy difficult to replicate studies, not to mention finding legitimate control groups. You have to look at the totality of the studies and make your best guess.

I tend to agree, but you don’t have to “make your best guess.” It’s perfectly reasonable to say that in some circumstances these programs appear to have positive outcomes and in other circumstances they appear to make no difference. A big part of science, particularly science involving people, is saying, “We don’t know.”

@Hyphen

And what’s the alternative? Charter schools? Again, the totality of the evidence shows they are no more effective then public schools.

But it’s not up to you or me or anyone else to tell parents and students that they don’t get to go to the school that satisfies them most because it’s “no more effective” than the public schools they’re avoiding. What does “effective” mean? It means doing well in exactly what you’re opposing, high stakes testing.

If it’s wrong to use testing to judge teachers (and it is), then it’s wrong to use testing to judge charter schools. Personally, I don’t like charter schools that are focused on testing and discipline. But that’s me. If they make other families happy, then they should be available to those families.

[aikimo]

See, I think you and I agree more than we don’t!

[Hyphen]

@aikimo

A big part of science, particularly science involving people, is saying, “We don’t know.”

I’m kind of lost where you are going with this. Social science especially is science in the aggregate. You are looking at populations and almost never individuals. Again, like a doctor prescribing a treatment, a certain medicine won’t work on everyone, but it should work on most people. If it doesn’t work, you try something else.

@aikimo

But it’s not up to you or me or anyone else to tell parents and students that they don’t get to go to the school that satisfies them most because it’s “no more effective” than the public schools they’re avoiding.

Earlier you said we needed a rational way to define to define what are good and bad performances in education. What would that be?

[aikimo]

@Hyphen

Again, like a doctor prescribing a treatment, a certain medicine won’t work on everyone, but it should work on most people. If it doesn’t work, you try something else.

Education is almost nothing like medicine. Medicine has mechanisms and methods for testing efficacy that are well understood. Education is psychological and individual not well understood. Human beings don’t develop mentally as similarly as they develop physically. The human mind is significantly less understood than the cosmos. Far too many professional educators act as if the developing human mind is something we understand so much we should force all people to learn specific things at specific times in their lives, and in specific ways. This is no less divorced from objective reality than young-earth creationism.

If a certain medicine doesn’t work on certain people, we don’t force them to take it, and then blame their lack of character (or their parents) when the medicine fails, as we do with education.

@Hyphen

Earlier you said we needed a rational way to define to define what are good and bad performances in education. What would that be?

It would be case by case and involve the individuals in question. Which, funnily, actually is more like medicine.

[Hyphen]

@aikimo

This is no less divorced from objective reality than young-earth creationism.

Yes. Thinking educational research can provide insight as to how kids learn is totally like believing in youth earth creationism.

@aikimo

If a certain medicine doesn’t work on certain people, we don’t force them to take it, and then blame their lack of character (or their parents) when the medicine fails, as we do with education.

Of this, we do agree. But that attitude is usually found in politicians and radio talk show hosts, not in teachers. Sadly, I also see it sometime even the parents who think their child and only their child is special.

[aikimo]

@Hyphen

Thinking educational research can provide insight as to how kids learn is totally like believing in youth earth creationism.

You shouldn’t misrepresent what someone says in order to disagree with them. I never said that about “educational research” and it’s poor form for you to suggest I did. I was talking about the conclusions (we know how all kids learn) and the actions (all kids must learn the way we say) of many education professionals. Here, I’ll quote it for you:

@aikimo

Far too many professional educators act as if the developing human mind is something we understand so much we should force all people to learn specific things at specific times in their lives, and in specific ways. This is no less divorced from objective reality than young-earth creationism.

So, let’s not have any more of that, shall we?

@Hyphen

But that attitude is usually found in politicians and radio talk show hosts, not in teachers.

It’s found in every person who believes in conventional, compulsory education. There are many teachers who are trapped into forcing bad medicine down the throats of their students, there are many who find ways around it, and there are, unfortunately, many who do it happily.

[MarjaE]

@aikimo

If a certain medicine doesn’t work on certain people, we don’t force them to take it, and then blame their lack of character (or their parents) when the medicine fails, as we do with education.

Maybe you don’t, but others do. Look at what’s going on with disabilities, chronic illness, and chronic pain.

[Hyphen]

@aikimo

I was talking about the conclusions (we know how all kids learn) and the actions (all kids must learn the way we say) of many education professionals.

I know of no educational professional who believes children learn in the same way. And if you ever spend time within a classroom, you’ll see how hard teachers work to let children work to their strengths.

@aikimo

It’s found in every person who believes in conventional, compulsory education.

And the moment of agreement passes. By and large, most schools do a great job of teaching kids. Those that don’t usually are in poor communities. If you think unschooling and charter schools are the solution, great. How do we implement it for all the kids? Because helping just a few kids in public education mean all the other ones lose resources.

I do not think compulsory or conventional schooling (at least in terms of going to class in a school in their neighborhood and learning in a structured environment) is a bad thing. Call me old fashion.