The check engine light is the single stupidest warning light in existence

There are three settings in the BIOS: on power-up stay off, switch on, or go to the previous state. I think the default is stay-off, but I am not sure. I’d be in favor if this could be selected with a jumper.

Is your place far from a major power trunk? Long lines with lots of load and many transformers between the “thick pipes” and you have such effect. Powering up for a second, powering down for 20-30 seconds or so, and then powering up again can be also done for safety reasons; whoever had hands on the wires (e.g. didn’t get the memo that the thing will go live) will get a brief shock and “go offline” after the power-down (when he can drop whatever he was grasping before). Many cases of technicians fried after powering a line up.

I wonder what mechanisms cause the machines to die on dirty power… And what could be done with the power supply design to make them coping better.

The only things I can think of would involve making these super cheap $4 280 watt supplies cost the same as something decent.

Or maybe not so if the mod is homemade and from recycled parts. Depends on what the ideas are…

I’m sure you’re sick of things that protect you from yourself, like insurance, seat belts, GFCIs, etc.

And it’s even more possible for computer errors to be less cryptic. But even if these errors were more naturalistic, I’m not sure they would ultimately be helpful to a lot of people, and a lot of people might think a problem is fairly innocuous by the textual description and ignore it. At least with a CEL that you have to take to a dealer to get turned off, you ostensibly have a professional checking it. For cars that are in warranty, at least, manufacturers might not be willing to cede too much control over faults and who can read them or turn them off.

Planned obsolescence? Cars are used for longer periods of time than ever.

And if/when the micro-monitoring @shaddack suggests becomes common, there will be complaints that they’ve made it even harder to fix cars. I still don’t get the complaints about how hard it is to fix a car when modern cars are way more reliable and need much less periodic maintenance than purely-mechanical vehicles.

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These protect me from my mistakes; I am cool with that.
NOT FROM MY INTENTIONS! Not giving me something “just because I could misunderstand it” is a sure way to make me mad like a cut snake. And not play along. And not play nice.

And that’s different from a numerical code or a single “general issue” light… how?

Or you put a piece of tape over it. Or just let it shining, ignoring it.

Easy as it is - DO NOT BEG FOR A STUPID PERMISSION! Just read it out. Your car, your circus, your monkeys, you have the gods-given right to know what’s under the hood!!! And in the chips. That is one truth that is self-evident.

There are ALWAYS complaints. After a while you won’t hear them anymore,

Until something breaks and then you get stuck with a fried circuitboard that should cost $5 and costs a half of the car’s remaining value, with its fuel tank full. Or, even worse, the software just decides it does not like you and all your user interface is one stupid light that shines at you mockingly in its data-rich orange beauty.

Random thought… for the common problems, what about attaching a CAN bus datalogger to the car’s wiring, and when the serviceman with his Officially Authorized Machine does the $tetrallion worth of pushing a button, he also gives you the specific code sequence to upload to the Net?

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It’s self evident? Did cars used to be sold with the complete shop’s manuals? There were never proprietary tools for fixing cars?

A CEL is designed so that it cannot be turned off by the owner unless he or she takes it to a garage. A CEL could mean indicate a serious problem or a mild one. The person intended to turn it off has the expertise to know if it is serious or not, and how to deal with it.

Yes, code readers mean that owners have access to the codes. But I do believe that this minimal barrier to access means that those accessing the codes have some technical ability or aptitude and are less likely to misinterpret their car’s codes.

If your engine blows up and you’ve had the CEL on and taped-over for 6 months, and you’re going to have warranty problems.

I have honestly never heard of this happening, and it’s difficult to imagine a car being new enough yet rare enough for there to be a shortage of ECUs sitting in scrap yards everywhere. On the other hand, these ECUs have probably saved people tons of money in maintenance costs and efficiency gains.

And it’s not like there’s never a shortage of mechanical parts for some cars, either, or that electronics and computer standards in other industries and embedded systems stay the same. Even though they’re much more robust than mechanical alternatives, board failures in many items means the value of that item becomes near-zero.

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Just on the Caprice (which, by that time, wasn’t a Caprice anymore; I’d installed the engine and transmission into an '87 Jaguar XJ6). I’ve had O2 sensors go bad on the cars of friends and family, but I’ve been lucky with mine. And the Toyotas are really the only EFI vehicles I’ve owned long enough to really deserve to wear them out, but they never have yet.

This is a brilliant line, and made me (actually) laugh out loud!

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Well, I’ve experienced similar things. My dad’s 2005 Ford Taurus has a center brake light (like all cars sold in the US since 1986), and he’s been through no fewer than three of those units. Rather than tossing a Sylvania 1157 incandescent bulb or two into the housing and calling it a day, Ford has a circuit board with ten LEDs in it, which costs hundreds from the dealer, is increasingly difficult to find in the junkyards (since they burn out so often), but can occasionally be found on eBay for $50 or so (used).

Until you get tired of swapping it out, and just wire in a pair of 1157s in disgust.

Not that I’m a complete Luddite. I do appreciate that, other than oil changes and similar scheduled maintenance, the “miracle mile” of 100,000 is no longer anywhere near a miracle, but simply a minimal lifespan expectation for most moving car parts. But the fact remains that a great many automotive repairs are still within the skillset of a reasonably trained and semi-confident amateur mechanic, but the automakers no longer expect or want their customers to mess with anything under the hood. This attitude isn’t particularly new: my first car, a 1978 Mercury Zephyr station wagon, had a particular carburetor, the Motorcraft 2700 Variable Venturi model, which was infamous for having its adjustment screws sealed at the factory so customers couldn’t adjust them. To be fair, that carburetor was nearly impossible to adjust properly anyway, but still.

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Is any of this related to the Clean Air Act? It’s in society’s best interest if your car does not create smog,and the simplest fix is not neccesarily the cleanest.

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I think a LOT of it, at least in the early days of that law, was related to the Clean Air Act.

I don’t object to the motivation. Complying with environmental regulations is a good thing!

But a lot of that “compliance engineering” was half-baked, pasted-on, after-thought “engineering” that created more problems than it solved.

We’ve come a LONG ways since that law first had enough teeth to make automakers sit up and take note.

But this thread is a more general complaint, not limited to those reactionary days of yore.

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In the Eastern Bloc, in 80’s, having such manuals available for cars was pretty much a norm. Our first two family cars had such books coming with them for certain.

You could’ve got schematics and service-level documentation for the locally made televisions and stereos as well.

So there were places and times when this WAS a norm, and it should be a norm again.

That’s a money-grab then, not a sensible design.

This ambiguity is a major problem with this idea. One of many.

Why the assumption the driver/owner does not have the expertise? There are people who won’t be helped if they were beaten to death with a full-thickness dead-tree service manual, but there are also many others who know enough to make their own decisions. It’s not some arcane magical art requiring forty years of studying of ancient moldy scrolls in a temple basement, followed with a blood-involving ritual, it’s just a car. A c-a-r!

Okay, a computer on wheels these days, but my point stands.

I believe that everybody should have a full access to the insides of their machines. The ones who aren’t knowledgeable enough will not touch them unless instructed, those who falsely think they know enough will make mistakes (which is entirely normal), and those who really know will not be hindered in their ability to do with their property what they have a right to.

Then there is the issue of remote support. With a detailed error code, you don’t have to have the knowledge yourself - you need only a cellphone and somebody in the know to call and ask. And then there is the Internet and the support servers and discussion forums. And there are many many other ways to turn an arcane-looking alphanumeric string into understandable information.

No such option with a single light in a mocking shade of orange.

Same goes for just leaving it shining, or not undestanding a more descriptive code/message. Your point is what, again?

With spare parts, there are plenty of them, for a plethora of car brands and models. The only exception is the specific one you need at the moment.

I am not against the concept of the ECU. I am strongly against the concept of the ECU as an undocumented black box that has to be treated like it contains a magically bound soul of a damned engineer. Just give me the API and the schematics and I’m happy, okay?

And then you don’t have the schematics and finding that one shorted $0.15 Zener diode that makes the whole thing more dead than a week old roadkill is a reverse-engineering ordeal, instead of a look-and-see endeavor. Many faults are of a pretty simple nature.

And it is not confined just to cars. Some days ago I was repairing a washing machine that died in the middle of the work. Totally bricked. After some tracing of the board lines I found an interrupted 10-ohm resistor (after finding that there is no voltage on the chip’s input and tracing why). After replacing it, it burned on power-on. That proved the culprit was a $5 switching power supply chip. It was ordered, received, replaced; the thing worked but now is resetting itself when the heater switches on. As by now I am only remotely supporting the repair, and the problem is a voltage dip when the relay actuates, we’ll likely not track the reason but just replace the relay with a SSR. The chip is some odd crap, I don’t know why the Poles didn’t put in something better, e.g. UC3844 (and more common and cheaper, too; probably the crap they used was cheaper in 10,000 pieces and is more expensive in single-piece than the alternative).
(Edit: I think I see why. They were too cheap for the extra FET, and used a chip with integrated one, with poor thermal specs. No wonder it dies so often, according to the forums…)

The cost of the washing machine, 400 euro. The cost of the replacement board, 140 euro. The cost of the chip that went wrong, 4 euro (10 with postage and some spare resistors). The cost of the work, greatly inflated by not having a schematics to work from and having to wing it from experience and a chip datasheet instead of look-and-see. (But we had a good chat and I got a yummy dinner that would take me about the same time to make as the repair itself. Still, the lack of the manual added to uncertainty of the result.)

And this is not limited just to washing machines. All the household appliances now have a computer inside, and are prone to its failure or failure of the supporting circuitry. And as it is often all on a single board, you are supposed to have no other choice than to replace the entire board with a spare part, for an absurd cost.

The power supplies are the most commonly failing parts of such boards. They are quite similar, various flavors of switching power supplies, and can be even replaced with something else; I was for a while tempted to just put in a 5V/12V ATX power supply, though that’d be quite an overkill for the few milliamps for the electronics and some more for the relays. Or tack in a 12V wall-wart and a cellphone charger.

In the old times, you could often encounter a piece of paper with the thing’s schematics attached to the inner side of the chassis lid, or other suitable place. Nowadays the complexity would not let the component-level schematics fit (with a readable font), but that is not an excuse for not at least offering a PDF to download.

A racket it is, I tell you, a racket!

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