The "cult" of trolls and how to deal with them

Here’s the deal concerning conflict v.s. abuse. Conflict implies that there is a mutual disagreement about something which can provoke heated discussion, strong viewpoints, antagonism, and can escalate into mutual name calling, etc. Conflict depends on the mutuality of the positions of the people involved in the conflict - ie two people sparring in a comments section. Abuse is a pattern of behaviour where there is an imbalance of power - physical, social, economic, etc - and this imbalance is used by the abuser to attack, undermine, blockade. Insults in a comment section or forum can be trivial - but when the conflict escalates outside of the boundaries of that space, and one person is persistently and specifically attacking and threatening their target, and showing up in every space where the target posts to threaten them then it becomes obvious who the abuser is and who the victim is. Abusive people are often skilled manipulators, who are excellent at playing the victim, so it can be challenging to parse out who the victim really is at first glance. If you sift through their aggressor’s history, a pattern will reveal itself of their perpetual antagonism, hostility, contempt, baiting, stalking, misogyny, racism, etc. Abusers are chronic offenders with a predictable pattern of behaviour.

“The abuser’s problem is not that he responds inappropriately to conflict. His abusiveness is operating prior to the conflict: it usually creates the conflict and it determines the shape the conflict takes.” - Lundy Bancroft

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Not only have I never been in a situation like that, I find it pretty hard to imagine how I’d even get in a situation like that – although the article was (insanely) informative.

Point of clarification. I’m too big to fit on a “little pedestal”.

I won’t say it’s wrong to use a handle online, because that would be hypocritical, Big_Ryan (as if that’s your real name).

[edit]kant spel taday.

I can’t see it as realistic to come up with neat little solutions to what is clearly a collection of problems.
For example, freeway shooters? I knew the first guy ever convicted of that after he was released from prison. Helluva a nice guy and a great dad, actually. He was just one of those people who goes all Mr. Hyde on alcohol. That doesn’t change the harm he knows he did - but it puts freeway shooting back in a context that doesn’t mistake it for something else.

Blame it on male dominance in the IT field? Oh. Right. Because men own porn sites and women own fashion sites. No gender-bias promotion there…now be sure and tell your daughters to watch out for all those pervs they’re going to be working with!

Blame parents? Gee. What about parents of children with developing mental illness? Not all of it happens all at once, not every person is psychotic at all times, and many are quite capable of faking well as they see the need - especially kids with their parents. It can take years to locate the right help for them, during which time that ‘little dickwad’ is reaching his majority - at which point nothing a parent does or says holds much legal weight. But sure - because we all know mental illness is caused by wargaming and unbridled internet use!

Use law enforcement? OK. But, you realize that Good Cop/Bad Cop is more than an interrogation technique, right? Because, some cops are bad. And those will use any authority you offer them to do exactly what you hope to squelch.

Gang up on the offender? Sure. In a world where women are getting sentenced to being stoned to death for having been raped. Where the same miscreants who would have simply used old-fashioned stalking to be rapists and murderers now simply have a new method at their disposal? Where a mere acquaintance of a Boston Bomber was killed during what was supposedly just an interview’? If law enforcement can’t gang up on a potential witness without doing more harm than good…

No, wait! More gun laws! Because knife sharpeners.

Seriously - c’mon. NONE of this is new. The only new thing here is the tech available to commit the crime. There’s unfortunately no fabulous new tech that’s going to change human frailties and deviant behavior, no matter what we used or how we employed it. Honestly, the only thing I can see as a potential benefit is perhaps an specific extradition move on stalkers who act at distance. At least then you could bring them into a jurisdiction that can act decisively. But even then, nationally? UN action? A rag tag batch of individual treaties?

I like the ‘To Catch’ series idea. Not because it would alter deviant behavior. It wouldn’t do much. But because it’s a way to popularize public disgust and maybe create teaching moments for our kids. Both genders. And, under that ‘To Catch a Predator’ series, there exists a network of private citizens working WITH law enforcement to locate those guys and bring them in. (Man - how many have there been who couldn’t not come, even thought they knew it was a potential trap? Flies and honey!)

That gives you both the honey pot maneuver, the public involvement as either activist or spectator, extra eyeballs on law enforcement’s behavior as well, and in a cooperative situation. No major legislative actions, no politicizing the problem, no full-on pogroms. Just people voluntarily handling a problem because it needs some handling. Yep. I like it.

I’d suggest that we’re, in your point, conflating extreme behaviors which we can all agree are bad with far less harmful and far less problematic behaviors by calling it all “abuse”. You’re position requires there to be a wider concept that explains and explores the full range of behavior instead of making generalizations based on the worst forms.

It’s going to be tough to find people in any majority who actually believes that stalking, harassing and violently threatening people is “good”. I’ll stand by that, and you can get some big red flags from individuals who do think that way.

But the problem is that one particular, unexamined form of this larger issue consists of those individuals who go around employing “abuse” as a hammer to shut down conversation. I’ve seen enough Social Justice Warriors around the internet who go for the jugular in the face of any and all criticism. It’s immensely common to see two sides of an argument which both escalate quickly, mutually and co-dependently. Yet one side gets to claim a zero-sum identity as a “victim” and then demonize the other side as an “abuser” without anything even beginning to resemble critical engagement with the actual topic.

I don’t mean to excuse for absolutely poor behavior, but if we look at the far less extremes which employ the same discursive language of “victims” and “abusers” we can quickly see plenty of examples of all sorts of different contexts and outcomes. It’s that in our drive to protect people from the worst, we end up providing further flame to the fire insomuch that we’re handing more power, unilaterally, to one side over the other and then it just becomes an entirely destructive and confrontational paradigm. Why are trollies going for the rape threats? in part it is because it provides the “correct” reaction. As soon as women, as a whole, were told over and over again by the media that there is nothing worse than rape (which is pretty much true excepting far less common acts) and when they were, as a class, encouraged to go nuclear to combat rape threats, then you have the form of driving trollies.

To put it another way, if someone being trolled says that their well-being depended on a service animal you can bet that the driving trollies response would be threats against that service animal.

It’s not simple, but the way in which we’ve simplified this whole conversation, globally and especially domestically in the US, doesn’t help as much as people want to think. Violence of any sort is always contemptible and is always something to fight against, but we still have a somewhat early psychological experience with understanding cycles of violence. We’re just beginning to understand that violence (and especially things like violence amongst family/partners/friends) is most often reciprocal and a joint effort. We’re learning (and have been for awhile) that early life experiences of violence and abuse correlate to larger propensities of violence later in life.

The current trend of easily categorizing people into simplistic groups of “victims” and “abusers” is wishful thinking at best. And those who end up on extremes of violence are often covered far more completely under discourses of mental illness or various behavioral disorders.

In response to IMB,

I could possibly agree with your opinion, in general, but the specifics of the article do address the females who were victimized. I would argue that it’s highly unlikely that a female is going to threaten to rape another female. I imagine it’s not completely unheard of, but most definitely rare. Further, I’d suggest that females would rarely threaten to rape males.

I’d suggest that it’s, again, a limiting discourse on the specificity of rape which ignores other violence. Spend fifteen minutes paging through the Social Justice and the “anti-Social Justice” and you’ll find examples of violent threats and very nasty treatment all over the place. The number of times individuals of any position utter the words “you should kill yourself” or threaten harm to each other is mind-boggling.

But that also peeks at something that is far more of a core-concern than the outcomes: the origins.

At the core of all of this is anger. It’s people lashing out in anger as opposed to focusing those feelings on critical thought and productive discourse. Too often the current model of, say, gender discourse begins with an individual criticizing part of Social Justice Theory (such as suggesting that “Patriarchy” is a limited and obfuscating concept that takes away focus on economic/class issues in favor of the “easy” and zero-sum men/women categorization); this is met by the Social Justice-minded individual’s immediate leap toward such generalized and simplistic concept like calling them a “Misogynist”, “Rape Apologist”, “Abuser” or even the simple old go-to of “Bigot”. From there you have an escalation with the entirety of the genesis to be found within the fact that both individuals pretty much take the same zero-sum position: I’m right, you’re wrong and there’s nothing to discuss.

And so we end up with anger and threats of violence and everyone involved chooses the easy, simple but decidedly non-productive path of employing simplified and zero-sum discursive structures.

And looping back to orangedesperado, you provide (unintentionally!) a great example of how to obfuscate a term and employ it as a weapon. You provide the very accurate and objectively-correct concept of “Abuse”. `However, we’re almost never discussing “Abuse” in such a limited way. We employ the concept of “Abuser” in a wide-net to ascribe those extreme, “evil” tendencies as you describe to individuals who show no objective evidence of being anywhere close. We, of course, also employ such terms accurately and we certainly should continue to do so, but the sheer prevalence of some of these commonly-used-but-really-loaded labels isn’t moving us forward in a way where we’re actually addressing the issue because we’ve watered it down so very much.

In the end a lot of this makes me uneasy. Not because I dislike the idea of going after individuals who stalk and harass others but because we’re so casual when we employ those same labels and terms in regard to people who simply disagree (and often for legitimate and good-willed reasons).

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I always keep mixing up this ass with the dude who makes the egg cartoons and thinking “HE DID WHAT?”

Based on his recent comments, I think the disconnect is that Jandrese read the title, skimmed Rob’s post, completely ignored the linked article, and unilaterally decided that we were talking about people who are rude in forums and comments, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

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Point and laugh.

That’s my only advice.

You can deflate any argument with a troll by pointing and laughing, and inviting others to see what a troll that troll was.

Now if only this helped. Unfortunately, pointing and laughing is attention, and there is nothing many trolls want more than attention! They don’t care if their argument is deflated - it’s not like they are attached to it. They’ll have a new one tomorrow.

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<facepalm>

So you also skipped the entire article and the comment thread. You and Jandrese should start a club or something.

We are not talking about rude people on forums. We are talking about stalking and criminal harassment. But no, feel free to recommend “pointing and laughing” as a solution to someone who’s getting thousands of death/rape threats directed to her personal address and family, I’m sure that’ll help.

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You know, it’s somewhat disappointing to still see this inherently gendered after @jsroberts went through quite some trouble to make a list of many individuals of all sorts of identities and contexts who have been the victims of such extreme harassment. It really doesn’t do any good to continue to perpetuate the incorrect concept of all of this simply as M–>F.

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I’ll admit I too skipped the entire article and comment thread.

Largely because what you’re talking about doesn’t match any common usage of “troll” that I’ve encountered. If it’s a usage that is common in communities I’m not involved in, my apologies… but from my admittedly narrow point of view this comes across very much as “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

What you’re describing comes closer to what I know as “griefer”.

May I suggest finding a better term, so we don’t confuse the two distinct issues?

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How about Reavers, like from Firefly, since assholes like weev care for nothing except causing pain.

To be fair, a search that included rape threats would probably have looked quite different. I excluded those results in part to show the variety of people who have threats made against them, not to suggest that this was a representative spread overall. The article itself cites studies that found that while men are often the victims of threats, 60% of victims are women. Women are also attacked much more often than men.

You have some good ideas, but still, it seems to me that law enforcement needs to use laws that are already on the books. If someone threatens to kill you on the internet, or by phone, or mail, and follows you through technology, what difference does it make? As you said, there may be glitches in extraditions, and so forth, but some of the LE involved never even seemed interested enough to investigate; the perps could have been down the street, for all they knew. Maybe I read it wrong, but the initial assumption on their part was that it was automatically out of their jurisdiction whether legally or geographically.

If it was out of their jurisdiction, then it crossed state lines and belonged to the FBI. Not that complicated.

Again, I don’t disagree with your overall assessment ( I was responding to specific examples in the article). Ad Hominen attacks never move a conversation forward, nor strengthen or create a cogent argument, nor change hearts and minds; it is a temporary release of pent up shit, sometimes even by nice people, who may later regret it. Sometimes the words or name calling are actually accurate, in the strictest sense they may be factual. But it doesn’t convince that person that you are right, it only escalates a bad situation into a worse one.

I think that some of the targets may not have contributed to the situation escalating. It may be that the person threatening, exposing, or otherwise seriously fucking with some other person’s life is doing so to simply exercise control. They aren’t even angry at that specific individual.

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The FBI also shrugged.

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Doesn’t make it OK. And we ARE talking about people who could have tracked a stalker down, and who get paid to deal with interstate crimes. So, they don’t get a pass.

Funny. how one of their number supposedly knew enough to locate Petraeus’ gf’s posts so easily…

Oh, absolutely! And I think that part of it is that we focus on the far less problematic instances because they’re easier and lower risk for the one doing the “calling out”. But we still transplant these extremes onto the non-extreme with alarming regularity.

It just makes it that much more difficult to come to a solution that can address the extremes while also treating that which isn’t extreme as such, etc…

And well, I like the cut of your jib.