The Paradox of Tolerance: should intolerance be tolerated?

This is already a year old, but I think it’s appropriate here.

Ok. Nazis don’t do speech, they do violence.

But you accept limits to “free speech” whenever you don’t let people shout fire in crowded theaters, destroy people’s reputations and livelihoods with false rumors, or incite others to riot and join pogroms or lynch mobs, and there is no loss to freedom in not being permitted to do those things.

There is no freedom that is absolute and no real downside to attaching responsibility to rights.

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Exactly. Everyone advocating for individual or state violence against some group of people for any reason other than preventing said people from perpetrating physical violence can get fucked. They are my enemies. That said, giving the state the power to censor them is more dangerous than having them spouting that shit. That power is more likely to be used against the disenfranchised and against voices of reason than against Nazis. This constantly gets me with America’s “left.'” They’re by and large just as happy to allow the government to arrogate to itself all kinds of powers as the right is, when their guy is in power, somehow keeping themselves willfully oblivious of the fact that people could easily come into power who would use all those powers against them.

The solution is enormously more rigorous constitutional and institutional safeguards to prevent abuse of state power no matter who it’s used against, not more censorship.

That said, while a monopolistic ISP censoring is effectively as bad as the government doing it, I’m much more sanguine about companies like Facebook and even Google doing it. Routing around those only takes a little bit of effort, not money, and if they do it often enough to bother people, they’re just opening the door for alternatives to break their monopoly. Also, I don’t think they have an obligation to provide a platform for things they find morally repugnant.

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Just to hammer that point home, a screenshot:

Bigot Says

See that shit there?

Anyone who actually thinks like that can’t be reasoned with and they are a danger to civilization as a whole. Anyone who believes that they have some sort of “right” to kill other people and their children because they aren’t ‘allowed to dissent’ is a cancer upon society, and they deserve no quarter and no sympathy.

May every ill that such poor excuses for ‘people’ wish upon others befall them, tenfold.

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What a whiny little shit that guy is.

He doesn’t understand that protest is costly. Sometimes people don’t like what they say, and that in no way violates the right to dissent.

Sometimes everyone hates you when you speak out. You’re not special and exempt from responsibility and social cost because you have white skin and a swastika on your armband.

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Another interesting example of tolerance with regards to victimization is that a lot of outrage can be sparked as a result of refusing the mantle of victimhood.

For example, shortly after I had joined the BBS, I was relating some of my experiences in a topic about sexual assault, where I had explained that I had to come to terms with what had happened to me by acknowledging that it was unjust, but not allowing myself to identify as a victim, that doing so would be letting it define me too much. So I became engrossed with some CBT and martial arts to work through it. To say that my account did not go over well would be a titanic understatement. A few very vocal people complained that my alternate framing took away from others’ accounts, that talking about ME being raped was somehow victim-blaming other people who had experiences of that sort but felt differently about them, and - this is a big one - cries of “no true Scotsman”, that my feelings about what happened rendered my account illegitimate. That nobody who had that really happen to them would feel as I did, so they felt entitled to deny that it did happen. That is a pretty common tactic for when discussion of social issues appears to have gone off-script from what is popular in contemporary activism. It’s something I encounter quite often in topics about advocacy for the homeless, gender nonconformists, indigenous rights, DIY economics & government, etc.

How this works in the larger sphere is that victimization and restitution are often vaguely colonialist. The centrist position is to recognize oppression and fix it by means of assimilation, while failing to consider that this process of assimilation is the very much a goal of imperialism, and profoundly disempowering to those who want no part of it. Such “reparations” disincentivize acceptance of a victim position, and come off as patronizing.

Being offered citizenship, job, money, family, and a voice in ways that front for fundamentally oppressive culture (such as Euro-colonial culture) might be better than outright death or slavery, but it is still an erasure, a negation that conciliatory parties refuse to take responsibility for. Liberalism makes concessions, but ultimately does not tolerate opting out of this, and us being empowered to have our own kinds of jobs, neighborhoods, shelter, money, etc. In some ways violent fascists are easier to deal with, because their intolerance is transparent, to others and themselves - and when they get payback, they know why. Centrists tend to have tolerance in sentiment, but not in principle and action, because they do not truly have or believe in an egalitarian perspective. So they always need to appease others who have “real power”, and when as an oppressed person or group you refuse their “help” - they blame you. That kind of intolerance is a lot more slippery, quite difficult to confront and expose compared to those who mean obvious harm.

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F intolerance and F those who tolerate it!

Thats a bit of revisionism right there I think. I was a bit young at the time but was “there” to some degree. In fact derision of the Whole Earth idealism isn’t new, it goes all the way back to then. Also as I understand, the EFF wasn’t really started for the reasons stated here.

Including religious Jews. Chabad traces its web presence back to 1988

Which is to say technology can’t “fix” human nature.

Nor do I but it won’t be with technology.

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All liberties have some kind of boundaries and limits :

Property : You can’t own a human being.
Movement : You can’t go in your neighbour’s house without permission.
Religion : You can’t use your religion as an excuse for any sort of crime.
Etc.
And, believe it or not, in most European countries hate speech is illegal.

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Tolerating intolerance is letting people think you are okay with racism or sexism. And tolerating intolerance actually make you intolerant let me prove it :

We don’t have to deal with hate speech, racism, sexism, we have to forbid it for the sake of free speech. It might sound like a paradox but is it not, any other foundamental liberties have limits, why making an exception ?

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Defense of hate speech is no different than hate speech. It establishes it as an acceptable opinion. Hate speech is an act of violence, as it by definition is the call for violent action to be taken; stating that certain groups of people are lesser than you goes against all humans being equal which is the fundamental human right of all people.

Suppression of hate speech is not comparable to suppression of free speech. It is a preemptive protection against the spread of hatred and bigotry. To say the government will misuse its power to suppress hate speech is a blatant slippery slope fallacy argument with no basis; indeed, it always seems that the only people concerned about free speech when it comes to hate speech is those who wish to partake in it.

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This is the biggest area where the alt right/right wing trolls will fight and try to muddy the waters. They claim the left is hypocritical because, after having heard their intolerant bigoted bullshit, the left doesn’t listen to them anymore. On private forums owned by companies or private individuals that are not beholden to providing a platform for everyone to say anything, this involves muting or banning and comment moderation, which they’ll say is censorship and violations of free speech.

You can’t negotiate with a scorpion that will sting you while you’re both trying to cross the river, so pretending having a discussion with them to find a middle ground is possible becomes absurd. This doesn’t mean anything illegal should be done to them, but it also means that any obligation to provide common courtesy expired when they decided decorum was an unnecessary obstacle to “winning.”

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Oh, yes, if only those black people, gays, and women would have shut their pie holes and stopped demanding equal rights, everything would be great right now. /s

Like it or not, class is not the only social issue that we need to tackle. Hiding one’s head in the sand or pretending like people will be given rights without actually doing the hard work gets us no where.

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Do you really think that the categorization of particular groups of people started with them? Like African Americans decided to embrace blackness and THAT’S where the trouble for them began as opposed to the introduction of racial laws after Bacon’s Rebellion in the 17th century? Really?

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brady-bunch-surejan

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I’ve seen some users get upset over the availability of the client-side Muting script for Discourse because it denies people the “benefit” of hearing their “insightfully novel”, “unpopular” or “contrarian” speech. Not co-incidentally, I would bet that their monickers appear most often on the lists of people who use the script for reasons that have less to do with their views than with the spirit in which they’re offered.

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It’s how I’ve managed to keep reletive functionality around more outspoken anti-lgbt family members. God gave you the right to say and think what you want. The moment you want to do something like… oh… run people over with a car or shoot up a night club? That’s when it’s clearly gone into ‘unacceptable’ territory.

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Those are the exact same things. The backlash is the adoption of identity-based strategies by those who see it as a threat when used against the institutions they previously took for granted such as white privilege. The white nationalists and alt-right and allies have been talking about using the left’s supposed strategies against them, whether or not they’re actually the left’s strategies. They talk about Rules for Radicals like it’s a bible for the left and quote it a lot. They think the left has achieved new, but still inadequate levels of equality through these “sneaky tricks,” so they attempt to emulate them. That is all backlash against the slow tide of change. Gay marriage isn’t up for debate anymore. Women can serve in combat roles. Transgender service is safe for the moment. There are a thousand other little steps that must be taken and they will continue to react against them every step of the way, but it’s still all just reactionary backlash and really cargo cult levels of misunderstanding how to achieve change.

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But what does it actually, in practice, mean to defend or accept speech? There is no distinction made here between the event of speech, and the content of speech. If somebody says something that we find objectionable, than we “accept” that they in fact said it, but disagree with the content of what they said. Just like defending that a person speaks in no way implies defense of the position conveyed in the content of their speech. Refusing to help a person to communicate their opinion is fine, but the only way to actively stop them from communicating it basically to kill them. And I very much doubt that most of those who wring their hands and say that “it shouldn’t be allowed” (itself an authoritarian position) are personally willing to do that.

It’s become a popular false equivalence. Hate is a condition, like an emotion. And as such it does not have an action or agenda in itself. Not unlike the legal construct of the “anger management” racket. I agree that it is almost entirely beneficial for people to learn emotional self-regulation of this sort. But it’s still a false equivalence. You don’t need to punch a person in the nose because you felt angry, you might have done it just because you decided to. You are getting punished for a violent act, not an emotion. What people refer to as “hate speech” is not an emotion, it is an ideology, and it would be far more constructive to use a vocabulary which recognizes it as such.

Likewise, one could argue that stating what value and rights a person has depends upon what species they happen to be is still just as bigoted as saying that it is dependent upon race or sex. If speciesism is fundamental to your society, then we’re all fucked. As vast and horrible as the violence humans perpetrate upon other humans based on superficial differences such as genitals and skin color, the pain, death, and destruction are less than 1/1000 of that directed against others for the crime of not being human. Like it or not, that attitude is still a form of violent tribalism. The only way out is not to make our social ingroup larger as to encompass more people - it is to cease socializing in terms of ingroup/outgroup at all.

And what about us marginals who refuse your protection?

What you propose is an authoritarian position to begin with, which is in itself objectionable to some people.

And there is the “no true Scotsman”. Doesn’t that basically mean that you think you have a sufficient critical mass of support, that you can safely throw the rest of us under the bus as acceptable collateral damage? Saying that essentially “no good person would disagree” does not come across as very rhetorically honest.

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